Outdoor finishes can be one of the trickiest types of wood finishes to master. Why? Because there is never a one size fits all solution. As woodworkers, we are used to dealing with the seasonal wood movement of our interior pieces. But when one of our creations is destined to live outside, there is much more to consider. Depending on your region’s climate, your project could experience anything from snow and ice to hot desert sand storms. How the heck do we prepare for that?!?! Well, it is still an area that I am learning much about. I haven’t built many outdoor pieces and most of my knowledge comes from my reading and conversations with other woodworkers. Here in the Arizona desert, we have mild winters, occasional isolated rain spells, monsoon season (a temporary time of increased humidity), frequent dust storms, and of course, blazing hot summers where my shop can reach 125F, if left to its own devices. So in these harsh conditions, how would you finish your solid alder front door? For me, the answer lies in something most of us use on a daily basis: our workbenches. Much like your workbench, an Arizona front door will receive a great deal of punishment. And when an item is going to see that much abuse, sometimes the focus has to shift from absolute protection (a losing battle), to repair-ability. And that’s where my special homemade oil/marine varnish blend comes in handy. Watch the video and see what you think.
The product I recommend using in the video is Epifanes Marine Varnish.
Great episode Marc – and timely, since I’m considering refinishing some white cedar outdoor furniture this summer. I’ve never used the marine varnish and was curious if there are any other things to consider when using it (other than what’s on the label). The central NY climate is fussy too, in that we have temp ranges from humid 90′s in the summer to dry single digits and below zero in the winter. We get a good deal of precipitation from rain and snow. Would you think the oil/varnish blend would be appropriate for up here or should I consider more varnish and less oil? The usual wood treatments in the northeast include polys and paints, but it’s been my experience that polys can get gummy in the summer sun. The thought that the marine varnish might hold up better is encouraging. Also, to what extent would you think the marine varnish would color the wood – it looks pretty dark in the video.
thanks,
Muddler
Hey Mike. The varnish, once diluted a bit really imparts the same amber hue you normally get from an oil-based varnish. Nothing unusual, but obviously a factor on lighter colored woods.
Another great podcast Marc – very helpful. What no out takes!
Is Sylvia calling you with my questions? Timely for me, too. Sounds like a good finish on the “infinity” booth I’m making. I am so not ready
to do a project yet, but my boss told me about this booth one day and asked, “is that something you could make?” We might as well have been playing truth or dare. The next thing I know, I hear someone’s voice that sounds a lot like mine, “Oh sure, no problem. When do you need it?” “In three weeks, yeah I can do that.” GOD,,,I’m such a maroon!
Hey Marc,
I am in the process of building a stand for my BBQ Smoker. I have some redwood that I will be using for the top and sides, but I have no idea on how to finish it. It will have some light food contact, so I don’t want to use a typical deck sealer. Would the food grade finish you used in the cutting board ep. work, or will the outdoor weather eat it up to quickly. It is redwood so it can handle the outdoors, but I want it to last as long as possible.
Thanks,
Chris from SoCal
Hi Marc,
Really like your videos. Great info!
At the end of your video you mentioned moist humid climates. What would you use or how would you change this finish to fit that climate?
MItch, I would probably use the Epifanes varnish straight. If its good enough for a boat, its good enough in humid conditions. :) I might also consider trying clear outdoor paint base. This is just paint without pigment. I have heard this makes an excellent outdoor finish.
Quiglagg, I would probably recommend the straight varnish in your case as well. My only concern is the close proximity to the heat. I’m not sure how well or how long the varnish will stand up to that abuse. I suppose it also depends on the proximity of the stand to the firebox. I am sure you know this, but be very careful since we are talking about wood near heat. We don’t want the whole thing going up in smoke (no pun intended). Bottom line is if the wood is any where near your cook temp (200-250F), no finish in the world is going to survive. As for the concerns about food prep, the varnish will dry to a film that should have no adverse effects on food items. Just keep it clean like any other surface.
I would be curious if anyone else has recommendations for high heat options.
Thanks for the advice Marc. No worries about the heat. The stand is for an electric smoker that is very well insulated. I can can grab on to it even at its highest temperature without it being hot.
I have used a product called CWF from The Flood Company (http://www.flood.com/flood/) to treat and preserve my redwood decks for the last ten years or so. CWF is a close to the wood finish. It doesnt leave any visible coating on the redwood but protects it from the Texas heat and humidity. One of my decks is cantilevered over the lake putting it into full sun most of the day. I usually put new coat of CWF on the redwood every second year. They have several tinted versions but they are too artificial for my taste.
I also use CWF on my redwood table and planter boxes that are on the deck. Quiglag, Im not sure that it would give the protection that you want for your smoker stand. Id consider making a cutting board that I could use to carry things back and forth from the house. Im afraid that the redwood would be to soft to withstand the use/abuse that it might get otherwise.
Liked the new episode. I am just curious why you used naptha and not japan dryer. i have heard that boilded linseed oil has some japan dryer in it. Never really verified that though. Maybe because Naptha is cheaper than Japan Dryer or too much Japan dryer is a bad thing??? I await you always insightful response.
Thanks.
Hey Todd. The naptha was added as a fast-evaporating thinner. The primarily goal being to thin the material out to a wiping formula. The boiled linseed oil already has driers added to it that help promote curing. Adding more could very well be a bad thing. But I don’t often use Japan Drier so I don’t know what the threshold is before something goes wrong. But I don’t think more drier is really necessary for this mix.
Hi Mark, first of all I have to say that I’m always waiting for a new video of TWW. A lot of good information for somebody like me that is learning.
Have you ever used an open pore sealer?
Here in Chile there is a german product called Xyladecor, apart of all the protections to the wood (UV, termites, moisture,etc) this sealer doesn’t form a film in the wood, so it doesn’t crack and after a few years if you need to re-apply the product, you don’t need to sand the surface, just clean it and apply it again.
The Windows of my house have this sealer and I used for a small furniture of my bathroom and the wood looks great. I’m working in the cabinets for my kitchen and I will use Xyladecor there too.
I think that in US you must have a similar product.
Andres.
For the door in the video, it was already finished in the past with oil so you added one light coat. What if you’re building new furniture for the patio? How many coats would you put on? I’m guessing it would be one coat after the first coat that absorbs evenly.
Cool,
Nice to see the various houses in Marcs life. Looks like Arizona is nice, especially the weather. Doesnt make things easy for finishing. Some good info Marc, thanks, i m sure i m going to use i sooner or later. BTW Marc, what is that new background we see on the podcasts? Something that is inspired from your visit at Fine Woodworking?
Hey Paul. For the patio, I would put 2-3 coats on new wood. But I would also make an effort to keep the furniture covered or out of the sun. That will dramatically improve the life of the finish as well as the furniture. But if we are talking full sun exposure, I would treat it exactly the same as a door. 2-3 coats then a light coat every year.
And yes Robby, that is exactly where I got the inspiration from. I love the look of a classic old school wood shop. And unfortunately, it just doesnt make sense in my shop. But on the back wall, where my workbench is, I saw the perfect opportunity for easy wall-hung hand tool storage and a great backdrop for the show.
Thanks for the product recommendation Andres. There are lots of companies that make outdoor wood protectant, and something you just never really know what you are getting. So whenever possible, I try to keep things simple so that you aren’t dependent on any one companie’s “magic elixer”. And in many cases, if you look closely at the ingredients, you will see that it is actually just common off-the-shelf ingredients. But then again, some company, like the one you mention, might just have some proprietary mixture that kicks butt. If it aint broke, don’t fix it, right?
Thanks for bringing up this subject. When I originally built my deck 2 years ago there was zero information online/offline for staining decks in the Western States outdoors.
I really wanted a deck that looked super shinny like in those made with Redwood in California.
Your video was very informative and prompted me to search for more answers to rejuvenate for my Colorado sun baked deck.
Bob at Popular Woodworking provides an interesting perspective. He looks at it from what causes the damage to wood. He then goes on to explain what you eluded to in some detail – nice companion to your video. He also goes down the Marine varnish from a Marine store path
http://www.popularwoodworking......g?id=14744
I’ll be trying that Marine store Marine varnish ASAP.
Respectfully,
MRod
Hey Marc,
Any experience using this method on an oily hardwood like teak?
We’re considering buying a teak table/chairs patio set, and wondering how best to preserve its beauty.
Thanks!
-John
Hey John. The first thing to decide is what type of finish you want. You can have a light finish (an outdoor oil is good http://www.rockler.com/product.....;sid=AFN86) that provides moderate protection and relies on teaks natural weather resistance, which also requires more frequent maintenance. Or you can apply a film finish, like Epifanes, that offers significantly more protection and less maintenance.
Option #2 sounds the best, but for some folks that film finish is a deal breaker. If you like the natural look, you are going to want option #1.
Now remember, I use this finish method on my doors here in Arizona, which represents and extreme of heat and sunlight. You didn’t mention your climate so your situation may be different than mine. Email me and we can go into some more detail.
Hey Marc,
Where did you pickup that Epifanes in Phoenix? The only place I’ve seen industrial finishes is at Spellman’s and Superior, and I don’t recall seeing any spar/marine varnishes.
I’m in the valley, and my project as soon as the heat breaks is to strip/stain/finish our front door. So I have a while to wait ;)
Hey Karl. I don’t pick it up locally. I order mine from Jamestown Distributors:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com
Several weeks ago I refinished an outdoor table using your Outdoor Finish. The table top is made from wood taken from a Canadian brewery floor. Over the years it had started to look pretty bad.
I started out by removing all the old finish and running the top through my drum sander. After several coats of the Outdoor Finish the table top looked fantastic รข
Marc, You may be a godsend. We live in the Phoenix area and our house is two years old. I need to refinish the exterior vigas. Can I use your desert outdoor finish for them? They have been stained previously, but it is very worn. Could I add a little oil base wood stain to your finish? I don’t want them to look opaque, just darker like they were to begin with. Also, some of them have developed cracks. Is that a prpblem?
Hi Susan. You sure can use this formula. I actually opted for more varnish in my mix when I did our vigas. I really wont be able to recoat them every year so I wanted a little more protection, and went lighter on the oil.
You can add some stain to the finish, but I am not a big fan of doing that. Oil based finishes just aren’t a great medium for coloring. The results are usually not great. Now if you are just trying to darken things a bit, I suppose you could try it. But again, not my favorite way of applying color. If you can stain the bare wood, that would be the best way to go. If you do decide to add a little stain, you should try it on a hidden area of the pole just to see how it turns out and if it even makes any difference.
As for the cracks, well, I guess you could fill them, but that would be a heck of a job and it would probably look terrible. I have cracks in every one of my poles and I simply use a brush to get the varnish into the crack and seal the wood up from the inside. But the crack itself remains.
Hope that helps.
Marc,
I’ve just found the ‘woodwhisperer’ so I apologize if already covered.
I live in Florida in Winter – and Adirondacks in Summer.
Your AZ outdoor finishing approach is very close to what I have used for years both places. First off – here in FL and even in NY – I do not use any ‘raw oils’ – BLO or Tung – because of the moisture. You will get black – black mildew if you do.
I take a good ‘old fashioned’ phenolic-based (never urethane) marine varnish with UV inhibitors. (Ace Hardwae up here has one). I then dilute 50-50 with mineral spirits (I don’t feel I need to rush it with Naptha and prefer that it really soak in)
I wipe it – or spray it – on. Wipe down/push in immediately. Maybe 3 coats or so between very light sanding.. Not a film finish. Let it soak in.
Have had for years on Adk chairs etc. White pine and Western Red Cedar mostly.
Regards,
Chris
Sorry, I have a question about your last response. I looked at the website and it appears that this varnish you are recommeding is very shiny and glossy. That would totally take away from the character of this old mexican piece of furniture. Plus, it is carved all around the edges, so I don’t want to sand it down before applying a coat of anything. Am I missing something? Thanks for your clarification.
Hey Jan. You’ll find that most of these outdoor finishes are glossy. The gloss reflects the light better and makes the finish a little more UV resistant. But you can usually still get these finishes in a different sheen. Epifanes sells a low gloss varnish that you can use instead of the high gloss: http://www.jamestowndistributo.....te+Varnish
So the matte version might be a good option for your Mexican pieces. I would still dilute it a little bit with mineral spirits so that it can soak into all those nooks and crannies. And 2-3 coats should offer you a vast improvement in protection, without giving too much of an artificial look.
I watched the video and love it. We are also in Phoenix and have a large exterior Mahogany door that needs maintenance.
I’m looking at the Epifanes varnishes and they come in high gloss (WFG1000) and matte (WFM1000). In the video, you didn’t specify which product you used, but in this comment, you stated that they are usually glossy varnishes and that the glossy reflects more of the UV rays. For an outdoor mahogany front door that gets tremendous sunlight, do you recommend the glossy or the matte varnish?
THANKS!
I used the gloss product. Unless you specifically don’t want the look of gloss, that’s what I would recommend using.
I have lived here in AZ. for 33 years now and just like you
I learned from some elders. The difference is I use a bit less marine varnish, a touch more boiled linseed, and
turpentine (not synthetic). The turp. allows the wood to absorb more and you decrease the turp. with subsequent coats. I have a redwood screen door that originally received 5 coats and has not been touched for the previous 8 years. I think that it might need to be done next year.
We’ll see. The screen door is simular to yours shaded with some direct sun.
Yours, Doug, Lake Havasu City, AZ.
P.S. Do you have a particular hard or semi, wood that you use for outdoor applications (park benches, etc)?
I live in UT and am going to use this finish on some outdoor esposed beams. How much time would you recommend in between coats.
I would guess at 24 hours or so. If they are still tacky, I wouldn’t recoat. And if you are doing more than 2 coats, I would lay off the oil component for the final coats, since that will have a tough time drying over sealed wood.
I wish I would have found this a year ago when I was putting my new front door up. I put a poly. on not knowing any better. So not looking forward to having to strip it down in a couple of years, but at least I know better know. Great video by the way.
I live in Ireland and not sure about the availability of buying naptha over the counter – I realise naptha is an oil-based product but is it being used as a diluter for the varnish? Would cellulose thinners or white spirit achieve the same result?
I do believe white spirits will work for thinning. I don’t know much about cellulose thinners, but from the little bit of info I just read via Google, I don’t think it would be appropriate for thinning of a varnish.
How’s come you never answered my Question?
I just missed it Douglas. Sorry about that. To answer your question, there are a number of woods that are naturally good outside. Things like teak and cedar, for instance. But another wood that’s relatively easy to find and very hard, is white oak. That might be a good choice for you.
Great video. I live in Las Vegas and am considering buying wood doors for my house.
My front door gets direct morning sun. If I were to just use linseed oil, could I just wipe it on onece a year or do I need to use this mix and sand before putting it on?
If I should use this mix, how thorough do you need to be with the sanding? I am mostly concerned about the creavices.
Hey Chris. Which one you use is completely up to you. If you use linseed oil, you’ll definitely be applying it once a year. And you’ll probably want to sand lightly before applying the oil. But the door will have less protection and it will look a little dull.
If you use the formula in this video, you can probably go a couple years in between finishing sessions and the door tends to look “finishes”, and less dull. This finish also requires some sanding before applying. The sanding produces a nice smooth surface for the finish to bind to, resulting in a smoother end product. So how much you sand depends on how smooth you want your door to be when its all said and done.
Thanks,
I guess that I will use your formula as I probably cannot avoid the light sanding.
Chris
We followed your recommendations on staining/sealing a brand new mahogany exterior door with the Epifanes marine finish.
The only problem is that we waited too long to apply the finish to the raw wood and the door is now bowed from side-to-side.
I left the door lying on the garage floor all summer with concrete blocks on either side to try to straighten out the bow, but it has not helped.
I am wondering If I sand down the door edge all the way around and leave it exposed to the Arizona heat and humidity, is there a chance the door will ever straighten out? Maybe even use a humidifier in the garage?
Any advice is greatly appreciated! This is a brand-new $1,500 door and I hate to have it ruined!
Oh boy, that doesn’t sound good. I don’t suppose there is any way the door is still under a warranty? Problem is, once a big door like that warps, its difficult if not impossible to straighten it back out in any permanent fashion. Many times, even if you get the door to flatten out, the warp eventually returns. This is true of small doors on furniture and perhaps even truer for doors where the wood is thicker and even more difficult to “re-train”. But if you were going to try it, I would start by placing some moist towels on the cupped side. In other words, put the towel in the cup itself. The moisture will cause the wood fibers to expand and the curve may reverse. You might even try to use clamps to help reverse the curve. Once the wood is hold the curve in the other direction, remove the towels. This could take a day or two so you might need to periodically add some moisture to the towels. Now after the door is dry again, remove it from the clamps and see what happens, if anything.
Also keep in mind if the door now has finish on it, this process won’t really work. You need the moisture to hit the raw wood.
Hi. We are in Phoenix, up on North Mountain, and we are just put in a new Redwood deck…my husband wants to leave the redwood plain with no finish…just sanded. We both love the look of weathered redwood. And we don’t want it glossy or painted looking. But I am concerned about not finishing it. We don’t have any water/mildew issues, but it will get hot direct sun – a lot of it. We have solid mahogany front doors, and refinished those last year and just used oil on them. They look great, but I have to oil them every year. I don’t want to do that with the deck…it’s kind of large!
What’s your recommendation?
Well, that’s a tough call. Do I think it should be finished? Yes. But its not my deck. :) If you husband likes the natural aging of redwood, then there isn’t much you can do. As you already know, an oil finish gives you a more “natural” look, but requires more care. Anything that would truly protect the wood would also build a film, taking away from the natural look.
Hey Marc – What is the difference between using minera spirits instead of naptha in the 3 part blend?
Mineral spirits will give you more working time than naptha. That’s about it.
Cool, thanks. Ever add any Trans Tint concentrate into this 3 part blend? Any issues you could see with doing that?
As far as I know, Transtint doesn’t list oils as being compatible. You might have some issues there.
Hey Marc – I just made an outdoor bench from reclaimed doug fir. I planed, sanded and applied the three part finish today and was wondering how long you wait between recoating. Also, are you sanding between coats? Thanks very much for the help.
Well, you should wait until it is dry. Apply the coats thin, wiping off the excess, and they should dry within 24 hrs. The key is thin coats though. And I would say you can give it a light sanding after the second coat if you feel the surface and it has some dust nibs.
We are planning to build a pavilion in the Chihuahua Desert area using Southern Yellow Pine for the decking. There will be a metal roof covering it with a 2′ overhang in each direction. The ground banks up several feet in the south and west and is unlikely to take any direct sun. Can you give us advise on precautions we should take or if we should abandon the idea of wood altogether – be fore we sign on the dotted line for this.
Thankyou for any advise you can offer.
Hey Ann. I honestly don?t know that I am the best person to address this question. I specialize in small furniture and I pretty much extended that knowledge to an exterior door for this video, which is not all that different than an outdoor chair. But that?s about where my experience ends when it comes to outdoor structures. When you?re talking about large scale things like decks and pavilions, the game changes because the things I normally do are no longer practical or cost effective. Someone who deals in decking or even a general contractor might be in a better position to give you solid advice. Sorry I couldn?t be more help.
Marc, Happy New Year! I’m in the planning stages of building a mailbox stand with Greene & Greene details -based on a more basic arts & crafts design. The box portion of the stand will be hard maple and I haven’t decided on what wood I will use for the bottom. Ideally, Ipe or cedar, but I’ll probably settle on Oak or walnut to keep the costs down. Anyway, I want the natural wood colors and grain to show, so I’ve been researching boat finishes because I want something that looks great, yet is lower maintenance than deck finish, particulary for the NJ climate. So what experience do you have with epoxy sealer as a primer? FWW has a great article touting the combination of MultiWoodPrime (epoxy sealer) by Smith & Company and Epiphanes; the article is called “A Durable Exterior Finish” (Sept./Oct 2005). Since these finishes are more on the expensive side, I want to know what to expect before I spend money. What kind of wood color changes can I expect with the epoxy sealer? If my aim is to get a tung oil color, how would the epoxy affect the aborption of something like Waterlox or should Waterlox be applied first? Or perhaps pure tung oil, then epoxy, then Epiphanes. How much maintenance should I expect once the project is installed? Obviously, this is confusing me, so I appreciate your help. Thanks, brother!
-Bryan
Hey Bryan. When in doubt, try to keep things as simple as possible. No reason to use oil on this project since pure oil offers very little protection outdoors. I actually like the FWW recommendation. CPES is an incredibly cool product as it absorbs into the grain and makes the wood impenetrable to moisture. If you’re real generous with this stuff around the end grain, you’ll be even better off. Once the epoxy dries, you can begin coating with Epifanes. This will be a very thick protective finish, similar to what you might see on a boat hand rail. The color effect is similar to a standard oil-based finish, bringing a nice amber tone to the wood.
Now you can also use something like waterlox, but I wouldn’t bother if the ultimate goal is to use Epifanes.