Ray has a couple of questions about water-based dyes and pinned tenons:
I am building maple morris chairs and I am thinking of using water based dyes from General Finishes. I would like to do the leg outside edges in say a burgundy or ebony and the rest of the chair in light or medium brown. My question is : How much, if any, might the color applied to the edge bleed onto the surrounding surface and if so, do you know of any tricks to remedy?
And this was my reply:
Hello Ray. Trying to do two different colors can sure be tricky with water-based dye. The water just absorbs so quickly and pulls the dye into the grain, that the color is difficult to control. So even if you tape it off, you will surely get seepage under the tape. So, if you are planning on making a crisp transition, water based dye might not be the best choice. If you plan on doing a bit of a faded transition, you might be able to pull it off.
Now the one way you might be able to get away with this is by spraying. If you tape off your edges, and spray very light misting coats, you could end up with a fairly crisp line. But take your time. As soon as the liquid pools, you are in trouble.
If you do wind up with the color set you are after, you’ll have to seal that color in without disturbing it as well. So very light misting coats of dewaxed shellac would be my choice. then follow up with your topcoat of choice. Hope that helps! Would love to see the results of your work!
Ray then wrote back and asked:
Thanks for the info. Doing further research, I think I am going to cover the entire chair first with water based dye, light mist of 1lb shellac and then gel stain for the offsetting edge color. How does that sound to you? Also, I am using dowel pins on the arms. I have double tenons on the frame. Do you think it is necessary to pin those? I am hoping not, but your advice would be appreciated. (pin the backrest tenons?) I truly appreciate your time and hope all is well.
And my response:
Sounds like you have a great solution there. If you mask off with tape, you should be fine using the gel stain. Just be careful near those taped edges. Now lets talk about pinned tenons. I have repaired more chairs than I care to admit. In many cases, a pinned tenon makes the difference between a chair that simply falls apart, and one that gets loose and needs to be tightened up. If the glue ever fails, you’ll at least have a couple pins stopping someone from falling on their butt. So if you can manage it, I would include the pins as an extra precaution. And just so you know, most of the chairs I repair are commercially-produced to lower standards than you and I would have. They are also chairs that were used and abused in restaurants. So essentially we are talking the worst case scenario here. If the chair is in your home, it will be a much lighter duty piece and you may not find the pins completely necessary, especially on the backrest. Hope that helps.
I couldn’t tell by the diagram, but is it preferable to drill all the way through the other side for the dowel pin? Or, can you drill past the far side of the tenon, halfway between the far side of the tenon and the opposite side?
This would only show the dowel end on the side where the drill bit entered. You could then decide if you wanted the dowel end showing on the outside of the arm or the inside. I’m assuming that even if you tried to match the color of the dowel to the arm it would still show.
I would not go all the way through, personally. I can’t think of a good reason for drilling all the way through, unless its for visual effect.
I can sympathize with the chair repair comments. A friend of mine owned several bars and every so often invites a bunch of us over on a Saturday morning to repair chairs and weave rush chair seats.
It is almost not worth the free beer.
Ok, I understand the pinned tenon. According to the diagram though, one must drill holes into at least one side to fit the dowel, pin, etc. To me, the worry would be the different textures or colors that the pin would create on the joint. I would assume you would make a pin from the same wood as the joint. Or… Maybe place a pin in shorter than the drilled hole and place a plug. Just thinking aloud now, then the plug could be of a contrasting colored/textured wood if desired At least this could add more continuity to the finished product or a specific contrast.
Yeah you would definitely have to conider the visual effect of a pinned joint. In some cases, it might not be an option if it screw up the visual effect you are going for. I would think you would be better off incorporating it into the design as opposed to trying to hide it.
I agree. If yu pin the joint, don’t try to hide it, incorporate it into the design. I tend to prefer darker dowels than lighter.
For a chair, I’m wondering if draw boring would be a good idea. It would seem offsetting the holes a bit would help to keep the joint tight and make it even less likely the glue would fail.
What about using a foxtail wedged tenon?
Will a tinted shellac have the same tendency to ‘bleed’along wood fibers like the water based tints??
-mm
Maybe a little. But if you apply light coats, you shouldn’t have the much of a problem since shellac dries so quickly.
My question per your note “light misting coats of dewaxed shellac would be my choice. then follow up with your topcoat of choice.” If one chooses GF Urethane Topcoat can not that be used in place of the dewaxed shellac? It would reduce the project by one step and save a lot of time and effort. Could/ought a GF polyacrylic be used? MW
If you are using an oil-based finish, this won’t really work. The key is to use a quick drying finish. So something like shellac, which is in an alcohol base, will dry very quickly. A water-based finish will dry quickly, but not as quick as shellac. So polyacrylic could work, but it wouldn’t be my first choice.
Regarding the pins, is it not correct that in traditional woodworking, the holes in the tenon would be offset by 1/64″ to provide an very tight fit after the pin is driven in?
I wouldn’t say its “correct” so much as its one way to do it. I usually find it unnecessary and many times it can even damage the tenon. With a tight fitting joint and some good glue surface, the reinforcement is there simply as a fail safe. But many folks do indeed offset. To each his/her own I suppose. :)