This week’s question comes from Jay. He writes:
I’m having a dust collection dilemma. As with a lot of entry level woodworkers, I’ve blown my tool budget on power tools many times over. (I just bought a new Powermatic PM2000 table saw for Christmas) For the past few years, my only form of dust collection has been a Delta air scrubber and a shop-vac to clean up at the end of a project. I’ve been debating between investing in the Festool system or a cyclone type stationary collector. I see the benefits of both. However, I only have the funds for one of the two right now. Would you recommend trying to collect the fine dust of sanding and routing or the larger dust from stationary tools first?
And here was my reply:
Hey Jason. The first thing I would do is pick up a $35 respirator. That will then take the pressure off of the next purchase. If the dust cant get to your lungs, you are one step ahead of the game. Now, as you said, you definitely need both in the long run. But, you already have a shop vac that can be used as a dust extractor for sanding. It might take some clever fitting, but you should be able to get it to work. If you can put a HEPA filter on the unit and use vacuum bags, you are even better off. So that should do just fine until you have the funds for a high quality system like Festool. So, my suggestion is get the large tools taken care of first. Then build up the system from there. But keep that respirator on anyway just to be safe. It might be overkill, but you do plan on doing this for a long time, don’t you? Good luck Jason. And congrats on that PM2000!
Note** – I have already received several emails asking me which respirator I recommend. The 3M 7500 (pictured above) is my favorite.
That’s what I like about you Marc. Your answers aren’t “spend insane sums of money on X”. Instead, it’s something very doable for everyone.
Great advice Marc. That is exactly the route I’m taking. I started with a respirator (and still use it) and am working to the Festool. I can’t wait to introduce their line of products into my workflow. I too recently snagged the PM2000 (you will love that saw). After the respirator I went with a large Grizzly for my large power tool dust extraction. I don’t make any money doing this (yet) and don’t have space for an stationary system so the Grizzly serves me well. After reading the reviews of the Festool Rotex on LJ I will likely bring that and the C22 into my garage as the first Festool.
I think a dust collector is essential for stationary power tools. It doesn’t have to be a cyclone. A small DC, like the Delta 50-760, and a shop vac will go a long way until you can upgrade to a cyclone and a festool vac.
I too have a Grizzly unit (G1028Z) However there are a few things I’ve done with it that have made it much better.
1. Set up a 2nd stage system – this is cheap and easy — I use the lid from Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/.....&ap=1)
2. Replace the cloth lower bags with Plastic ones – I use ones from Penn State Industries (http://www.pennstateind.com/). In my research they were the most afffordable. I can’t seem to find a direct link.
3. If you can afford it – get the top canister filter to fit your system. At a minimum get the 2.5micron bag.
4. Have a fine air filter that you can run for a few hours after you leave the shop.
Carl
I fully agree with Marc,
The respirator should always be the first defence, The large or stationary machines second. One advantage not mentioned so far is the less saw dust to clean up the more time spent on a project..
The stationary tools definitely represent the biggest pile of saw dust to clean up. Seriously a central vac system will save a lot of time sweeping and bending over to collect saw dust in the dust pan. as well as the much cleaner air to breath.
Good luck with your new shop. Sounds like the Powermatic saw is a most excellent start.
Marc and Nicole thank you for a great Blog to learn and share info on woodworking.
Again thak you Marc and Nicole
Kip
I have a solution for your cyclone dilemma, build you own. A set of plans are available thanks to yours truly. Go to SketchUp and get the model from Google, search for “LordLQQK’s wood dust collection”, or just click here: http://sketchup.google.com/3dw.....8;result=4. The cyclone can be made from 1/2 roll of 20″ galvanized steel flashing (good if you have a friend that needs one too), 1 6″ tube of steel duct tube, and (I think) 2 sheets of 3/4″ MDF. It can be built in about a day; barring interruptions from kids and spouses and the components cost under $75. For the engine I recommend the Grizzly 1029Z, it is a 2 HP 220V 12A air mover that will stuck the chrome off a bumper. You can also use its slightly little brother the 1028Z at 1-1/2 HP it is still enough for a small to medium shop. Whichever one you choose I would recommend getting the upgrade to a 1 micron bag, and placing a heavy 33 gal. trash bag (lawn and garden type) in the bottom of the filter area. I don’t get the reasoning for it but the standard bottom bag is sometimes 30 micron and the top is 5 or 2.5, so I put a bag on the bottom.
At the bottom of the cyclone it dumps to a standard trash can with a lid that has a hole with weatherstripping around the down feed pipe.
LQQK
Carl’s got the right idea, in my opinion.
I started out with a Penn State Industry DCB-1XL. I then added a garbage can cyclone adapter (Lee Valley). This is easily the best thing you can do to make a bag-type dust collector into a cyclone sucking monster. I rarely change the dust bag; the cyclone lid separates about 95% of the chips and dust. I have subsequently added a 1 micron pleated filter and plastic bag to replace the felt bags that came with the dust collector. Penn State now sells it in this configuration (http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dc1bxl-cf2.html) Switching the motor to 220 volts helps overall performance.
This is a single machine set-up. No duct work, just a long, flexible 4-inch hose (I like one Penn State sells – http://www.pennstateind.com/store/d08.html). With a blast gate on the Y-connector of the dust collector, I am able to draw from the dust port of my Unisaw and the overarm dust shield/guard. At the age of 50, I am still nimble enough to connect the machines as I need them, and I can use the exercise.
With a variety of adapters, I use this setup on everything (router, bandsaw, stationary belt sander, oscillating spindle sander, planer, jointer) except small hand tools (for which I use my Fein dust extractor that I got for Christmas).
In my opinion, dust extraction and collection is essential to long term health and the enjoyment of this craft. Inspired by Marc, I also wear my 3M mask much more than I used to, especially when sanding, much to the relief of my sinuses. No use in gumming up the lungs.
Cool. Nice to know I have a legitimate option for building my own cyclone. Thanks, LordLQQK.
I just ordered my 3M 7500 respirator from your store. My lungs and I thank you for the advice.
I’ve been using small portable dust collectors for a while. It’s been my experience that they really stink at collecting dust efficiently. I just finished 24 projects made out of a lot of MDF and plywood. Even though I ran the DCs a lot, I still have dust all over the shop and still in the cabinet of my table saw. The small units don’t have the CFM, I think, to do a good job. I’m upgrading to a Clear Vue cyclone. That’s what you have, right Marc? Do you like it? What model do you have? I’m thinking of getting the CV 1800.
Marc, somewhere I’ve seen the calculations for figuring out which DC you would need based on average CFM of the different woodworking machines. My next phase in building my shop is the dust collection.
Could I get your thoughts on which cyclone you’d pick, if you were to be in the market again? I’m thinking O’neida because they’ll design the piping. Again, your thoughts? I promised my wife I’d only spend about another $4,000 for the DC and cabinet stock.
Hey Geoff. I believe its the 1800. I have been relatively happy with the ClearVue until recently. My step dad is helping me a lot in the shop and I have multiple machines running at the same time quite often. Much more than in the past. So the performance has been suffering a bit.
As for having the chance to do it again? Definitely Oneida. I would have gone with Oneida the first time if I wasn’t starting a brand new business with no money, lol. Not only are their systems top notch, but having your duct system designed by them means you get it done right the first time. And the collector performs at its best.
I too have a Delta 50-760 like Germain. The dust in my shop is cut by no less than 80% while still in a temporary configuration. The Delta costs around $300.00 and you should shop for specials. The standard bag filters to 1 micron which only much more expensive systems have. There is also an after-market cartridge filter which lowers the overall profile, filters to 0.5 microns (HEPA is 0.3), and increases overall airflow (www.wynnenv.com). I have no problem with this system hooked up to a 20 foot, 4″ flex hose stepped down to either 3 or 2.5 inches on any one machine I run. For a smaller shop with space limits, this is a great dust collector. Now I know Festool is a sponsor here, but the 50-760 costs about 150.00 less than a CT22…. and should handle much more than the Festool could. I love Festool products myself, but I think that saying one of their canister/shop-vac style extracters is in the same class as even the single stage 50-760.
Marc, thanks for bringing up this subject. Dust control is important.
I also have the Delta 50-760. It’s really a great feature set. I like the clear bottom bag, since it’s really obvious when it’s getting full. The bag can be reused, too. I’m still on my first bag after emptying it probably 10 times. The metal hoops make bag changing a snap (pun intended). The top 1 micron bag is fine enough that I can’t smell any wood dust in the air after using it, and I have a tendency to be allergic to dust if there is any. Maybe 0.5 or 0.3 micron would be even better, but 1 micron has been great for me.
The air flow is SO much better than a shop vac. If you were thinking of buying or building a sanding table – no need. Just place the 4″ hose proximate to where you’re sanding. If you are working in bright light, it’s pleasing to watch all the dust molecules being sucked into the collector. There is no way you can do that with a shop vac.
Another thing that people sometimes get wrong: a 1 micron filter bag actually allows better air flow than the old 30 micron filter bags. This is counter intuitive but true.
My advice – FWIW – if you’re going to do any serious woodworking, get a regular dust collector. A really big collector (usually a cyclone) is only really needed if you want a permanent, ducted installation, and if you’re just starting out you will probably move your tools around too much over the next few years anyway.
By the way, the current issue of Wood Magazine has a test of <$400 dust collectors.
Marc,
I know that you exhaust your cyclone out into the desert. Air conditioning that big shop of yours in Arizona must cost a fortune. Can you comment on the trade-offs between using a filter on your dust collector vs sending all that dusty but cool air outdoors?
Thanks,
— Chip
Thanks Marc. I’ll only be using 1 machine at a time – I don’t trust anyone else with my tools!
I see that Ed now has the CV 1800 MAX for shops that run more than one machine at a time…
Hi everyone,
I don’t understand why it is that you are we can’t run more than one machine on a DC that sucks 1400CFM (even lets say it is only effectively running at 1100 CFM). I’ve operating a small shop and I do production work. So far I’ve been managing to just use a tiny DC (one of those Busy Bee’s that I picked up used). I built it into a cabinet with a Hepa Filter on it and a 55 Gallon drum in front of it. That should only give me effectively maybe 200CFM.
Most machinery is very fine dust (table saw and routing) but I’m also using large forstner bits that create a lot of chips.
I find that the importance is really about how to create the dust collection on the machine itself. I generally build very tight boxes and guide the air flow very specifically so that it takes away the chips and it seems to work. What are your thoughts on that? Also, can it be that when you use PVC piping (not the flex hoses) for most of the run, you can actually create ducting that has very listtle resistance? Eliminating as much of the flexible hose stuff as possible is a key I would assume.
I’m looking at upgrading now to a bigger unit (so I can run 2-3 machines and for better filtration), but I’m so hesitant, because I don’t want to buy a ClearVue and then find out that it does not do the trick. I’m pretty sure that I will make it work, but why does do manufacturers of the DC’s say “enough for 1 unit” when the effective suction is 1400 CFM?
Hey Hans. I suppose some of it might be exaggeration, depending on the actual cfm. But there are a few standard truths that you can count on. Long runs should be made with rigid ducting, minimize turns and keep your 90′s as wide as possible, and use blast gates. Also keep in mind that its not so much the large chips we need to worry about, its all teeny tiny dust particles that generally require a larger volume of air.
If you haven’t already, check out Bill Pentz’s site. Some good reading on dust collection theory. http://www.billpentz.com/woodw...../index.cfm
When you’re done, you’ll be able to make more sense of the manufacturers’ claims.
And from personal experience, I can tell you the ClearVue will definitely do the trick. I had a very poorly designed duct system in my old shop and that thing still had no trouble pulling planer chips up a 6 foot vertical into a tight 90 degree turn, lol.
Using a dust mask is all well and good. But when you’re out in a cool shop that can lead to other problems. Here I northern MN I only turn on the shop heat when I’m in the shop. If I wear a dust mask my glasses fog. I use a 3m N95 mask with an exhallation vavle. Does the 3m 7500 prevent fogging of the glasses?
sure does. exhausts downward at the chin.
Although wearing a good properly fit dual cartridge respirator mask such as the 3M 7500 units when making fine dust is vital, particularly when working one of the more toxic woods, the mask is just plain not enough to protect your health and the health of your family. Those with Dylos or other particle meters find unless we use at least a 3 hp dust collector or 5 hp cyclone plus upgraded tool hoods and either vent outside or through at least MERV-15 filters, that venting inside invariably and quickly builds such a high level of fugitive dust. This is called fugitive dust because it keeps escaping collection. In most shops that vent inside the amount of this fugitive dust builds so high, that just walking around stirs enough fine invisible dust airborne your shop will fail an EPA air quality test. If you have a typical garage, basement or other home attached shop this fine invisible unhealthy dust spreads so quickly that it will contaminate our homes. Certified government air quality testing shows that most small shops that vent their dust collectors, cyclone and shop vacuums inside build huge amounts of these unhealthiest fine invisible particles. Even very clean looking shops consistently show very high amounts of this fine dust that gets stirred airborne from our just moving around in our shops.
You can safely work in your home attached shop without contaminating your home if you do two things:
1. Install a standard 4” diameter exhaust fan that comes on when you turn on your garage lights. It should vent outside directly. What this fan does is even when all is closed is to generate enough negative pressure that when the connecting door to the residence portion of your home is opened that negative pressure keeps the dusty air from rushing into the home.
2. Always when making fine dust ensure you are wearing your respiratory mask and running at least an 18” good commercial duty fan that blows out of your shop. Most blow out a side door and leave the main door cracked about 4” or 5”. Our particle meters show we must keep the respirator mask and fan on for about one half hour to amply blow away the fine fugitive dust that keeps escaping collection and otherwise builds to dangerously unhealthy levels.
I’m always confused by people making the statement you need a “5HP” motor for your cyclone dust collector. Shouldn’t we be more interested in CFM? I understand that HP has a correlation to the CFM, but there are other factors that weigh in as well. Ultimately we are in need of a minimum CFM at each machine to ensure we have less of those “fugitives” in our shop. So why do we talk in terms of HP and not CFM?
My time gets spread too thin to do extended discussions on each different forum. This is what prompted creation of the Cyclone and Dust Collection Research web pages. I don’t like citing CFM ratings because blowers each provide a range of CFM depending upon how much resistance they must overcome from our tool hoods, ducting, filters and separators. A typical two-car garage sized shop will have a minimum resistance of about 4.5” meaning our blower must be able to push or pull a water column that high to overcome that overhead. This same shop with a long ducting run, dirty filters, etc. can hit 10” of resistance. We need a real 1000 CFM for good fine dust collection at that 10” not when the blower is running wide open with almost no resistance. We can look at a good blower table and see exactly what size impeller and motor we need. The professional blower tables show with this resistance range it takes at least a 3 hp dust collector or 3.5 hp cyclone to move enough air to move the 1000 CFM at most larger stationary tools used in small shops needed to collect the fine dust before it gets dispersed by normal room air currents. Since standard motor sizes are either 3 or 5 hp, I recommend a 5 hp. I also recommend using a little bit larger impeller. That larger impeller generates a little extra pressure which lets you use 6” diameter ducting to carry that 1000 CFM instead of the 7” diameter duct that you need if you don’t have an oversize impeller.