This article was inspired by a question from Jeff. He writes:
“I am using Helmsman Spar Urethane to refinish the front door of our house. It’s a one piece flat door — no recessed panels. I am applying it with a quality brush but I still get brush marks and hi-low points, also tried a sponge brush with same results. I know it’s barely noticeable but I absolutely abhor brush marks. After 4 coats, I have managed to sand it down fairly flat. Is it possible to thin Helmsman and spray it with an HVLP gun? There is a Helmsman spray can available but I have so much Urethane left over. To thin or not to thin?”
The Power of Dilution
Polyurethane, whether its an outdoor or indoor formula, takes a little finesse to apply without bubbles or brush strokes. You need to use the right brush and it takes a little practice to get the technique right. Sponge brushes are certainly another option, but the results are not always a significant improvement. Most of the trouble comes from the fact that the urethane solution is so thick. It can be like trying to lay down an even coat of corn syrup. So one way to significantly improve the workability of your urethane is to thin it with mineral spirits. Thinning by about 10-20% will make brushing significantly easier. And thinning even further would allow you to spray via HVLP, but that’s definitely not my favorite way to apply an oil-based varnish. Thinning allows the finish to self-level a little better, and ultimately that will help you avoid brush marks. The only disadvantage is you need to apply more coats to get the desired film thickness you are after. But if the payoff is a smooth finish with no brush strokes, who cares, right?
The Wiping Method
Now there is yet another way to apply polyurethane that I feel is the easiest, beginner-friendly method. And frankly, its the method I still use. It involves abandoning brushes all together. Here’s what you do. Thin the varnish 50% with mineral spirits, paint thinner, or naptha. Then get yourself a clean cotton rag (old t-shirt material works great), and fold it into a nice square applicator pad. I like it to be palm-sized. Wet the applicator with your thinner and then dip it into your diluted finish. Wipe on smooth thin coats, overlapping the previous stroke with each pass by about half. This method will result in a super smooth finish with no bubbles and no brush strokes. But remember, you will need to apply twice as many coats to get to your desired film thickness. Because you are actually applying less material to the surface, the dry time is significantly decreased as well. So in some climates (hot and dry), you’ll be able to apply as many as three coats per day. Just remember that when you use a wipe-on urethane, you aren’t trying to flooding on a real thick layer. You are just coating the surface evenly with a thin wet film.
If you want to learn more about my particular finishing method, you should check out my DVD, A Simple Varnish Finish. My goal with the DVD was to demystify finishing by going over each and every step of the wiping varnish process. Even someone new to the world of finishing can create a show-stopping finish if they follow the methods outlined in the DVD. So check it out! And for those that are wondering what my preferred outdoor varnish is, its Epifanes Marine Varnish.
Thank you Marc for a great website, It’s very informative. I myself am in the constuction trade learning what is to know and I use your site as a tool to increase my Knowledge in fine wood working.As you probably know working for contracters they are allways looking for the quickest and not so safest way to GET UR DONE. I was wondering what your expierance is with water based poly’s. ie with brush hash marks.
Thank you for your time, I now have to dig myself out of this snow storm that we are getting blistered with.
Thomas
Marc,
What is the difference between Spar Urethane and Polyurethane?
Thanks,
Ron
Hey Thomas. I don’t usually use water based poly, but when I do I usually apply it using a HVLP spray system. It sprays alot like lacquer and gives decent results. Its a water-white finish so it suitable for light-colored woods that you dont want to yellow over time, like maple and birch. If you do have to brush it on, I recommend using a synthetic applicator taking care not to produce bubbles. When you stir the product, use a stirring stick and stir in each direction about 100 time. Dont shake the can. And since it flashes so quickly, you might want to dilute with a bit of water. This will give you a bit more working time between application strokes.
And Ron, Spar Urethane is intended for outdoor use and contains a higher amount of solids. It tends to be a softer, more flexible finish. This is primarily because of the temperature changes and harsh conditions outdoor pieces will experience. The finish needs to be flexible in order to survive. Spar urethane may also contain UV inhibitors which help to preserve the color of the wood and avoid graying.
Hope that answers your questions guys!!
marc
Great! Just what I was looking for thanks!
Marc,
I have to say Wow, my hats off to you and your wife.For doing such a wonderful job.
This past summer I lost my lower left leg.While I was off an setting around, I got interested in woodworking.I started by watching New Yankee Workshop and then I started to read books an magazines. Looking at websites, thats how I stumbbled across yours. Man,I am impressed.
How a person can take a piece of wood an create a work of art.I myself would love to learn how to become a craftsman.But i know it takes time an tools.As far as skill I believe I have the abillaity.But the question is can you teach an old 50 year old man .Where do I start in what direction. These are questions I ask myself.
I dont have friends that have this skill.As far as classes, I have looked but can not find any near Cincinnati,Ohio.
Hello again. I finished my hardwood floor and applied water based Trek + one of three different ways. The first coat I used a brush and all went well – some lap marks but no big deal. The second coat with a paint pad for water based poly – went well but not as good as a mohair roller. No air bubbles and dried perfect and took so little time and effort. One question though. Before the floor was finished and just bare wood it looked and felt like glass. After the coats and buffing in between each it doesn’t look as flat. Almost like the poly seeps between the cracks and lowers versus the center of the wood which gives a less than flat look. I was thinking of buffing after the final coat with 600 grit paper. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
Hey Moe. By no means am I a floor finisher. I can only apply what I know about furniture finishing to your situation. Perhaps someone with floor experience can chime in.
Usually with furniture, you can sand your finish coat flat after you apply a coat or two of the finish. So any little dips or valleys will be taken care of. Then when you apply your final coat, it is glass smooth and flat. Now doing this on a larger scale is a whole different story. And hopefully someone else can chime in.
As for the final buffing, 600 grit would work fine but it will give you a satin finish. Assuming thats what you are looking for, you are good to go. Just let the floor cure for several days to a week before sanding. And use mineral spirits as a lubricant.
Hope that helps.
Thin Urethane, love it! Solved my bubble, speck and brush stroke problems on my dashboard.
I am refinish a wood garage door that the original finish has deteriorated in some areas, but not others. I used a finishing sander to remove the discolored wood and finish as well as to taper out the edge. I thinned the helmsman spar urethane about 20% on the first coat, and used it straight for two more coats. The areas where I sanded have a darker appearance than the unsanded areas, even though it is the same varnish being used and it occurs not only on the exposed wood but the areas that I sanded the finish off of (that had not been damaged), just in order to be able to feather the new finish in easier. I don’t understand why reapplying the same finish to wood that was originally only sanded, with no other sealer or finish, has caused this difference in color to appear. Is it possible that it will lighten up to match the other finish as it dries, or that the mineral spirits thinning caused my finish to penetrate differently?
Hey Rick. Its really tough to say. Since we are talking about weathered wood that has been previously finished, and the finish was damaged, there are a quite a few variables at play. One thing I know though is that once you sand off a finish and refinish it, the wood almost never stains or finishes to the exact same color. At least part of the reason is the fact the sanding can actually drive some of the finish into the grain.
So it is possible that the color will even out over time, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Just keep in mind that poly finishes are usually not the best finishes for the type of repair you did. The repair is nearly impossible to hide (as you can see). In many cases its necessary to remove finish from the entire surface in order to achieve an even appearance and a smooth finish. So at this point, you may just need to give it time. But if it really bugs you, you may need to refinish the whole door.
I might also suggest trying a higher quality spar urethane that will last alot longer than the Helmsmans. One that I recommend is Epifanes.
You said you prefer Epifanes finishes for exterior doors. Which specfic one was it. And how many mL will it take to do a door?
Dean
Epifanes Marine Varnish
And a 500mL can should cover a door easily….maybe two depending on how thick you go with the finish.
he absolutely correct! if need to spray, then spray, like me, im a sprayer beleiver, but you gotta know what ya doin. A tip , use min spirits mixed with naptha for your thinner blend, this is to thin and be a delivery solvent for coating. HVLP, Conventional, ok, no airless!!! !st two u can control air atomization, by feel. forget reccomendations by mfg!!! Im an old coatings guy from the industrial side, not local joe blo painters, which normally give u same info, cause they dont know!!! But thin n spray, have fun!!!
Urethanes are cleaned from brushes using mineral spirits. Purdy makes a metal toothed comb that separates/aligns the bristles to aid in cleaning.
Some people prefer to toss a brush after each use, but when you buy a quality brush it can last for weeks of use with proper care.
can you use spar urthn on an acrilic painted surface?
Hi Sue. You can apply spar urethane over acrylic. Just keep in mind that it could very well yellow the finish over time. Im not sure what your application is, but you might consider a water-based poly for this job. It is fairly protective and won’t yellow over time.
I understand spar urethane is better for water and uv rays than polyurethane. My window sashes have one coat of poly, can I use spar over the poly?
Hi Randy. You are right on about spar urethane. They are engineered to have better water resistance and added UV blockers. But in reality, its all just varnish. So if you scuff up the current poly layer with some 220 grit sandpaper, just apply the spar urethane right on top. They should be completely compatible.
Good luck!
HI,
Would like to know if you can apply spar urethane over a formica countertop? It is an ugly speckled white countertop and I want to first stain it a different color than coat it with Spar urethane. Will it adhere and hold up to moisture in a kitchen??
Thanks for your input.
We purchased an unfinished mahogany exterior door. We were admiring the beautiful finish on a sample door at Lowe’s and the salesman said it was so nice because they had used Sherwin-Williams sanding sealer after the stain and then used spar urethane. Will the spar urethane adhere well to the Wood Classics Fast-Drying Sanding Sealer? I read one account on the internet advising not to use sanding sealer with polyurethane. What do you think? I’ve used oil-based interior stain. I may return the Helmsman spar-urethane and get Epifanes after reading you blog.
Hey Phil. Definitely go for the Epifanes. You won’t regret it. Looking at how many times I recommend the stuff on this page makes me laugh. Too bad I don’t receive a commission check from them. :)
With an oil-based stain on the door already, I see no reason to use a sanding sealer at all. Some say you can have adhesion issues because of the material in the sanding sealer. Not sure how much of a difference it makes but why use the product if you don’t have to. I would simply apply a very dilute coat of marine varnish, let that soak in and wipe off the excess. Your door is now sealed. :) You can then topcoat it with more coats of varnish to your liking.
Hi Mr. Woodwhisperer, I’m having a hard time trying to find the Epifanes in the local boat and hardware shops you talk about so highly. Is there a special place, a store I can find it at or do I need to by it online. Would love to find out where. Thank you so much for all your help. I’m sure you have answered this one before, but the blog is long and I’m short on time. Thanks again for all your suggestions. Sincerely Christine
I have only ever purchased mine online. Here’s a link for you: http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ.....B0016ZDBOU
Great website, lot’s of very good info. I just built a tiki bar in an semi covered outdoor pool area. The top is Tigerwood flooring and sides and trim are stained Mahagany. Would a spar urethane be the best finish for my project and what brand do you recommend? Also I am considering doing a 2 part epoxy finish over the tigerwood top, at some point, will I be able to apply this over a spar urethane?
Mahalo,
Lee
Hey Lee. Spar urethane would be an excellent choice for that job. My favorite outdoor finish is actually a marine varnish known as Epifanes. The 2-part epoxy would certainly give you a good amount of protection on that bar top. Now if you already had some spar urethane on the top, my best guess is that you would be fine coating over that with epoxy. My guess is that the epoxy isn’t going to be too picky about what it sticks to. But its probably not a bad idea to lightly sand the poly top prior to applying the epoxy layer.
Hope that helps.
Pam. To be honest, that’s a little beyond my expertise. Im not 100% sure how the surface would respond. My guess would be that you need to rough up the formica surface a bit. The urethane will need something to bite into and a smooth formica top is not exactly that. So I guessing that if you sand the entire surface with 180 or 220 grit, apply your coloring agent, and then apply the urethane on top, you MIGHT get a decent final product. But its not something i can whole-heartedly recommend unless I experiment with it myself. Maybe try the operation on a scrap piece of formica from the home store and see how it holds up.
Love the podcast! I’m just about through all of them but am trying to pace myself a bit since I’ve been watching about 5 or 6 episodes per day since I discovered it.
My question is, why 180 grit sandpaper as opposed to 220 grit for finish sanding? The only thing I can guess is that 180 allows more stain and/or finish to soak in than after a 220 sanding.
Thanks!
Hey Tom. Glad you found us!
You are right about absorbing more stain at 180 vs 220, but I rarely stain so that’s actually not the reason.
I find that with most woods, by the time I hit 180, I can no longer see the scratch marks left by the sanding. And if I can’t see the scratch marks and the surface is nice and smooth, there is really no reason to go any further. To me, a surface sanded to 180 doesn’t “look” any different than one that’s been sanded to 220. And once its coated with finish, its “look” is really all that affects the final finish.
I haven’t had coffee yet so hopefully that makes sense, lol.
thewoodwhisperer is your initial response you said to “wipe on your last coat”. If I where to whip on my last coat what type of rag would you recommend?
Just a clean cotton rag. I use old t-shirts. The fact that they’ve been washed so many times means they are pretty much lint free.
I have been working on a 50 ft. bar top and I applied 3 coats of lacquer sealer, sanding between each coat, and have applied 3 coats of Helmsmans sanding between each coat. It looks wonderful while it’s wet, but when it dries it has slight cloudy look to it? I have strained my material, bought a new brush and still can’t figure out why iit looks a bit cloudy??? It’s semi gloss finish
HELP!!!!
Three coats of full-strength varnish over a pre-sealed surface will give you a substantial build of finish. And if you are using semi-gloss, that’s three layers that all contain flatteners. The result being a slightly cloudy finish. Most people find that for the ultimate in finish clarity, build up with gloss, then do your final coat with your sheen of choice.
That would be my best guess as to the cause of the cloudiness. Good luck!
Im working on two Mohogany front doors that were severly weatherd ,I striped them, bleached them ,than sanded with 120 grit sandpaper,the problem is the stain took too dark in some ereas and light in other ereas,i used an oil stain, what arey choices, also can i add color to hellsman finnish
Hey Dan. Sorry to hear you are having trouble. The only non-invasive fix that I know of, would be to bring the whole door to a darker color. So if you don’t want that darker color, then you have to get the stain out of the wood. Sometimes strippers can pull the stain out but in all likelihood, you’ve got some more sanding to do.
Once the wood is cleaned up and ready to stain again, I recommend taking the standard blotching precautions: a pre-coat of 1lb cut shellac, sanded to 220, then apply a gel stain instead of a standard oil-based stain. This should drastically improve your results.
As for coloring the Helmsman, it can be done using dyes that are soluble in oil-based finishes. But to tell you the truth, I don’t really like adding color to oil finishes. In my opinion, you get the best results when toning with fast drying finishes like shellac and lacquer. Oil just takes so long to dry, the results of coloring with that could very well be unpredictable.
Good luck.
Help! I have a front door made of firealss and stained it and applied spar urethane (Helsman Minwax); everything was fine until I applied the second coat and it clouded up. I followed intstructions and don’t understand what happended. I am afraid to go any further for fear of making a mess.
Suggestions please?
i just refinished a fiberglass door ( that the old finish bubbled and cracked) i used minwax gel stain, and i just put the spar urethane on. do i have to put a second coat on??? it looks pretty good, no brush marks. is one coat good enough, the can doesn’t say it has to have 2 coats, what do you think??
Hi Wanda. Hard for me to know for sure without seeing it, but there are a few things that could have caused this. First off is blushing. This is a situation where water vapor gets trapped in the finish and causes cloudiness. High humidity is usually the culprit. I honestly haven’t seen this much with polys (more common with spraying lacquer and shellac). And I’m not sure what your weather conditions are so I can’t say for sure. Just throwing this out there as a possibility.
The second cause could be improperly-mixed finish. If you are using anything other than high gloss, there are particles in the finish known as flatteners. These particles scatter the light and give the finish its semigloss, or satin look. If the can wasn’t mixed sufficiently, the flatteners will stay at the bottom of the can, and every coat you apply will be cloudier and cloudier as the flatteners get more and more concentrated.
Now there could be something else going on that I am not even thinking of, but these would be my “best guesses”. Unfortunately, adding more coats of finish will not fix the problem. If it were me, I would start over. And if possible, I would step up to a higher quality marine varnish. Something like Epifanes would be great.
Hello Handy Housewife. I would recommend at least another coat. In general, the more coats you apply, the more protection the door will enjoy. And especially if you applied a stain, you are going to want to protect the stain layer from abrasion, scratching and wear. So I would probably apply a total of 3 coats. Some may recommend even more, but personally, I don’t like real thick finishes.
Hope that helps.
do i need to wait 24hrs between coats, do i need to sand between coats???
I would wait 12 hours between coats. If the surface still feels tacky, just wait a bit longer. Sanding between coats isn’t a bad idea, since it smooths the surface and preps it for the next coat. So I like to sand between every coat, lightly, when possible.
is it ok to use helmsman spar urethane on my 15 yo cedar deck?
i only intend to use it for the railings and not the floor. i stared using a bit when i noticed on can that it is not recommended for decks b/c they are large and have greater maintainance reqmts. Am i better off just using a water sealer such as thompsons?
the spar urethane looks better.
still need to do way more cleaning and don’t want to put on finish that isn’t best for the project, thanks for any help.
I am finishing the interior of my log home and have used spar urethane for my bathroom, utility, and kitchen cabinets. I would also like to use the spar urethane on the ceiling and walls in my bathroom for moisture protection. Question is, can I apply spar urethane over a water-based stain/sealer.
Thanks
Ellen
Hi Ellen. Once the waterbased material is fully cured, you should have no problem coating it with oil-based spar varnish. Good luck.
Finished a maghony door with spar urethane, installed the door, covered the door for about 3 months during construction. Uncovered the door about a month ago and still looked great, the sun came out and bubbles everywhere. Start over, strip the door, restain, refinish with spar using airless spray, 24 hrs 2nd coat airless spray, cure 3 days, back to the job hang the door looks great. 3 hours later the sun shines and bubbles everywhere HELP!!!!
A few questions, what kind of wood is it, what stain did you use, what are the temps in your area, both in your shop and on site? Also, tell me more about the bubbles. Can you easily scrape the varnish off with your fingernail? Are the bubbles actually cracks or are they literally bubbles where the finish has lifted off the surface?
The wood is maghony, the stain is Sherwin BAC wiping stain, oil base. Shop temp upper 60′s low 70′s. Outside are the same, but the sun was shining directly on the door so the surface temp was higher. The bubbles are like blisters and you can lift them off the door
You didn’t mention the brand of varnish or how long you waited before applying the varnish over the stained surface. And that is part of my concern here. 60′s -low 70′s is definitely below the optimal curing temperature for that stain. That doesn’t mean it won’t cure, it just means it won’t cure as quickly. But if the temp dips too low, the stain will stay sticky for quite some time. So one possible explanation is that you are applying the varnish over a surface that wasn’t completely cured. When the sun hits the door, the curing process is accelerated, but the finish is already applied. And this could cause the finish to crack, peel or even blister. So my recommendation would be to apply the stain in a warmer environment. Bring in a little space heater if you have to. Let it cure completely. If you touch the surface the next day and the door feel even a little tacky, leave it alone. The surface should feel dry and no colder than room temp. At this point, it should be safe to apply the topcoat. And you may want to jump up to a high quality marine varnish. There is a night and day difference in the quality level of something like Helmsman Spar Varnish and Epifanes Marine Varnish. Its really worth the extra money.
Now that’s not a sure thing, but its my best educated guess. If you are being super precautious, you might even consider applying a light coat of dewaxed shellac after the stain and before the topcoat. This will make sure you have a good compatible binding surface for the varnish and also something to seal in the stain. Shouldn’t be necessary in this case, but better safe than sorry.
Good luck.
I make signs out of wood and last Spring (2008), I purchased a gallon of Helmsman Spar Urathane since I go through quite a bit of it (and absolutely love it). I had used a little more than a 1/4 of the gallon then stored it for the summer in the basement. Its a living basement therefore the temperature was generally around 65 – 70 degrees through out the summer. When I opened it this fall to start using again, it had a hard coat over the top of it and about 4 inches of jell under that. I don’t know if the can wasn’t closed tightly or what happened. I was able to break through the hard coat and tried to mix it all up as best I could but now I have small ‘chunks’ of the jell that gets on my wood work. Is there anything I can do to eliminate this? Should I stir it with a drill attachment paint stirrer or would that cause more problems? I would really hate to have to throw away 3/4 of a gallon so would appreciate any help you could send my way.
Thanks
Hi Terri. Unfortunately my friend, your Urethane is trashed. A skin and chunks are a sign that the finish has already started curing in the can. These finishes cure via oxidation, which means air is your worst enemy. So either the can wasn’t sealed well enough, or the little bit of air that was trapped in the can was enough to keep the curing process going. The key is to put the varnish in a container that has little to no room for air. Or, you can use some of that “heavy air” stuff. Its an aerosol can full of inert gas that creates an oxygen-free pillow on top of your finish, protecting it from oxidation. Another option is to fill the can with marbles or some other heavy item so the liquid level is raised to the top. But sad to say, this is all for prevention. Once the finish starts curing, as it has in your case, the material is best thrown away.
I am in the process of installing new Ikea oak countertops (butcher block / 1.5″ thick), and i have a question about finishing them. Ikea recommends oiling them. I was wondering if Spar Urethane wouldn’t be a more permanent solution. My concern is the sink cut-out – i worry about water finding it’s way under the Urethane from the sink edge over time, and lifting the urethane. Is this worth worrying about?
I guess my first question would be, do you plan on cutting food directly on the countertop, or will you treat it like any other countertop and simply wipe up spills and never really take a knife to it. If you are treating it like a cutting surface, than you have to be concerned about putting a thick film on the surface. The knife marks could cause the finish to lift at some point as water seeps under it. That’s why Ikea is recommending an oil finish. The other finishing option is the one I use on my end grain cutting boards. See Episode 7 A Cut Above for more details on that. It might be just what you’re looking for.
Now whether you use my method, or you simply put a few good coats of spar varnish on it, you are going to want to caulk the lip of the sink like on any other job, and be sure to wipe up spills all the time. A solid wood top does require a little extra attention in that way. But that’s the trade-off right? If you use oil only for the wood, then you are really going to have to be attentive to standing water.
Hi There,
We painted our countertops four years ago. They looked great and they withstood a lot of wear and tear. However, we recently wanted to make it shinier and sparklier (like real granite stone…because we did a faux-granite paint finish)…. We sprayed down the sparkle, and added a layer of MinWax Helmenns Spar Urethane in clear gloss. The first layer went down well, and so did the second (we sanded lightly in between layers). Then, on the third layer, my husband messed up and put too much of the spar urethane on it…and he could see brush strokes. So he sanded it down and tried again. Again, he saw really obvious brush strokes. He bought a new brush and a whole new can of the urethane….but, still, brush marks wouldn’t go away. I’m not sure what we should do. If we sand it down too much, are we going to be pulling up the layers of glitter and spar urethane? Should we try wiping the last layer? We want a very clear, glass-like, smooth shiny surface. How can we achieve that at this point, and what do you think we did wrong?
Unfortunately Laura, you are discovering one of the drawbacks to using a polyurethane product. Yes its durable, but its not easily repairable. Think of each layer like a sheet of plastic wrap. And if there is a wrinkle or flaw in the current layer, and you put another coat on top of it, the old flaw will still telegraph through to the top layer. Also, if you sand too aggressively trying to flatten everything out, you may accidentally cut through the top layer of finish. If you do, you’ll create what is known as witness lines where the bottom layer shows through. Again, tricky stuff to fix. Sometimes its best to just start over.
Now I have never been a fan of brushes. Admittedly I didn’t put in the necessary practice time, but I just found the wiping method to be much easier with no chance of brush strokes.
Now your best bet is to sanding lightly with sandpaper and block of wood to flatten out the brush strokes. Just be careful. You really don’t want to cut all the way through that top layer. If the brush marks are not severe, you should be able to flatten most of it out without incident. Then proceed with wiping the finish on. Be sure to dilute the finish as well (about 50/50 with mineral spirits).
Now why this happened is hard for me to say. Brushing varnish does require a certain about of expertise and technique to do flawlessly. Using a good quality natural brush, like a china bristle brush, is a good start. Keeping the brush wet so that you always maintain a wet edge is key. And being careful NOT to overwork the area. These are all things to keep in mind as you are brushing. I would consult a good finishing book for a complete description of the brushing process if you want to go further down that route. Oh and you can always dilute the varnish a bit to help it flow a little better when brushing, so keep that in mind.
Good luck.
Also, when we sand the surface it gets very cloudy… If we add more layers of the spar urethane, will that cloudiness go away?
To those of you who are thinking about paintnig your countertops, it is WELL worth the time. It is very low cost, and you can do all sorts of cool things to make it look like stone. We did a faux granite finish, and added glitter in clumps and swirls…just like real stone. It is absolutely stunning.
Assuming the sanding scratches are from 320 grit or higher sandpaper or something like steel wool, the next layer of finish should indeed completely cover the previous layer and give you a nice finish.
can spar urethane be sprayed over with lacquer with out a problem,also i am thinking toning a door then going over it with spar urethane will that work with outh a problem
Can I use spar urethane on my new wood floors? Can I mix stain in the gallon of spar urethane? Should I thin first coat and how long to let dry. Do you have a 800 number I can talk to someone? Please help. My husband passed away a month ago, we are building a house and I don’t know the answers.
Just finished (pun intended) stripping, staining, restripping and staining my mahogany front door. Used a Bartley Gel Stain and am reasonably happy with the result. Next weekend, I’m applying the Spar Varnish. Like the idea of thinning and wiping, will use 0000 Bronze wool. I’ve noticed that you really like Epifanes, I’ve already got some Minwax, but can get Epifanes – is the difference that significant?
I have found the difference to be substantial. When you are talking about outdoor items, you can’t be too careful. The last thing you want is a finish that cracks or peels. Resin quality and UV inhibitors play an important role in this. And quality counts. So I stick with what I feel works best, and that’s Epifanes. While some folks have luck with products like Helmsman Spar Varnish, I get quite a few emails from people who are not happy at all with the durability. But I have yet to get an email from someone who was disappointed in Epifanes.
Adam, thanks for your suggestions. I went out and got the Epifanes and the thinner, used your idea of wiping it on. Applied 5 coats thinned at 50% (2x) and 30% (3x) – results are OUTSTANDING! Now I have another question, I have some older teak outdoor furniture that I have routinely sanded, oiled and at times used Teak Guard sealer. In each case the finish has only lasted one year. Any suggestions for a longer lasting finish for teak? I live in S. California, so the sun is pretty hot and consistant. – Thanks, Scott
You can always try Epifanes again. Just make sure you clean the surface really well and possibly even give it a coats of dewaxed shellac to seal off any of the natural oils in the wood. Then apply a couple coats of the Epifanes. I would be curious to see how this holds up compared to your other finishes. My guess is it should do very very well.
I’ve been using Minwax Helmsman spar urethane in my door refinishing business. I brushed on the Helmsman and applied at least 3 coats. I’ve recently switched to an HVLP system and have been using General Finishes 450 exterior water-based acrylic varnish. Drying time is much better with the water-based and getting a professional finish is much easier with the HVLP than brushing. Spraying an oil-based in my shop also makes me a bit nervous. Which topcoat do you think will hold up better?
Hey Adam. In general, I tend to think the oil-based finishes still have a durability advantage over water-based. But honestly, the gap is closing quickly. The water-based formulations just seem to keep getting better and better. Now i have never used that particular GF product, so I can’t speak from direct experience. But if you really like the way it applies (I totally agree about spraying), I say give it a shot. GF makes great products and I have no doubt you will see the performance described on the can. Just let me know how it turns out.
We have recently purchased a new textured fiberglass front door with 2 sidelites. I am having difficulty finding a gel stain as dark as my husband and I would like. We went in with the idea of having a black front door but I have been unable to find gel stain that I am happy with. Any suggestions on what I may do? Keep in mind I have NEVER finished a fiberglass door before! :)
Thank you for your time.
Hey Chantel. Have you tried the General Finishes line of gel stains? They have a Java stain that is about as dark as anything I have seen. I might give that a try if I were you. http://www.rockler.com/product.....;sid=AFN86
i have jst finished water sealing my deck with thompsons clear water sealer.
i have very little shine to 7 yr old deck. my question is: what can i put over the water sealer to make deck shine?
Hey Larry. I don’t see any reason you couldn’t top coat the deck with a good marine varnish. Something like Epifanes Marine Varnish would work nicely.
I might try to lightly sand the surface of the deck before applying the varnish, just to ensure a good bond. But there should be no problem getting it nice and shiny. Just be careful, since shiny usually means slippery too.
Want to put a protective finish over some painted wood with childrens watercolor designs on it for otdoor display.. Do you know if spar urethane would work? Thanks!
Just about any spar varnish should do the trick. I have been meaning to try the Helmsman water-based stuff: https://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(copnyqv1fm0gw5v0wtm4kc45)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=1373034
Just an FYI, you want to make sure that your finish doesn’t redissolve the water colors. You might need to seal it with some very light coats of lacquer or maybe test for color fastness using an oil-based product. But you also need to keep in mind the oil-based stuff will bring a yellow/amber color with it. So if it were me, I would probably do some very very light sprayed coats of blonde shellac. Then follow up with a few coats of a water based product.
The countertops in my kid’s bathroom are tile with wood trim and I’m afraid the finish on the trim is breaking down in spots where water pools or runs off the counter when the kids are having a little too much fun getting cleaned up for dinner. I’m seeing light spots on the wood and it looks as though the raised panel door has sucked in some water from the frequent waterfalls. It sounds like I should apply a few coats of Epifanes. Is there anything I can do prior to that to repair the damage? Thanks!
Hey Matt. I think sanding would be your best bet. If you can get down to bare wood, even better. Many times, the lighter color is really just trapped moisture, or a stain left over by the penetrating moisture. So sanding is the most effective way to remove it. And that way you’ll have a nice surface on which to apply the Epifanes.
Hope that helps!
I recently applied a gel stain tomy fiberglass garage doors and then applied Helmsman spar urethan satin finish. Unfortunately the satin finish looked too shiny compared to the same satin finish when applied on real wood doors. Could you please recommend a exterior spar urethane with a flat finish? Will I have issues (bubbling, cracking) if I apply another brand of spar urethane over the Helmsman spar urethane?
Thanks a lot,
Dave
I applied a gel stain to my fiberglass garage doors and then applied Helmsman spar urethan satin finish. Unfortunately the satin finish on fiberglass produced a high gloss result. Could you please recommend an exterior spar urethane with a flat finish? Will I have issues (bubbling, cracking) if I apply another brand of spar urethane over the Helmsman spar urethane?
Thanks a lot,
Dave
Hey Dave. You should have no problem topcoating the Helmsman with some other matte oil-based varnish. I would probably give the surface a good 220 grit sanding prior to applying the finish.
One other thing to try is manually creating the matte sheen using steel wool. Just give the varnish a week or so to cure. Varnish isn’t ideal for rubbing out like this but it might be a nice alternative to adding more varnish to the surface.
And one other thing that I am concerned with is how the Helmsman varnish created a high gloss finish when you bought a can of matte?? Not to ask the obvious but did you stir the can well? The flatteners tend to sink to the bottom so if you don’t mix it, you’ll essentially have gloss on the top and a bunch of crap on the bottom.
My favorite brand, Epifanes, also makes a matte finish that you can use as a topcoat: Epifanes Marine Varnish
Is Spar Urethane for wood only. I am looking for an exterior urethane for acrylic painted flower pots. I am currently using two layers of a water based polyurethane and find the poly and paint pulling off in spots. If the Spar Urethane is not suitable over acrylic paint can you recommend something that is?
Thanks
Hey Pam. If the poly and paint are coming off, there is definitely an adhesion issue. And since the paint is coming off, it sounds like you might need a good quality primer. Primer is like a universal binder and essentially sticks to everything. So if the pot isn’t accepting the paint completely, a good quality primer is definitely in order. Then your paint and your clear poly top coats will bind more securely. So I think you should make sure the paint is locked down before you consider the spar urethane.
Now since its acrylic paint, I might suggest sticking with a waterbased topcoat. They do make water based outdoor finishes like Exterior 450 http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18526
I’ve been meaning to try that finish but haven’t had a chance. General Finishes makes good stuff so I am sure its a good product.
we’re finishing replacement wood casement windows with GF stain and Man O War spar varnish. Unexpected thunderstorms after applying first coat, which was very slow to dry due to high humidity. Upon sanding, we get white blush or haze. What do we do now? Thanks for your help.
Well it sounds like you definitely have some trapped moisture in that finish. That could be a big problem. But there are some things you can try to get that moisture out of there without completely removing the finish.
The first thing I would try is blowing hot dry air on the finish. Perhaps something like a small electric room heater will do the trick. Don’t get it too hot, though. Just make sure the dry air is passing over the surface.
Now if that doesn’t work, there are other remedies like carefully rubbing the surface with an oil (mineral oil or lemon oil would be fine). This could displace the water. Just make sure you wipe the surface down with mineral spirits to remove the oil before you add another coat of finish.
One other thing to try would be another coat of your finish. So just test a small area to see what happens to the haze when some varnish is added to the surface. If you don’t see an improvement, quickly wipe it off so it doesn’t dry on the surface.
And lastly, if all else fails, just keep sanding. You only have one coat on there so it shouldn’t be too hard to get below the problem area.
Good luck!
The first thing I would try is applying a little more finish in a test area to see what happens. Sometimes the haze just kind of goes away. But if you can still see the haze, wipe off the varnish with a rag so it doesn’t dry on the surface.
Another thing to try is denatured alcohol. Some folks say wiping the surface with an alcohol soaked rag will pull the moisture out.
Thanks –I’ll give it a try. I found lots of descriptions of the haze on-line but not many solutions, so I appreciate your suggestions.
Can I use Helsman urelthene Satin finish for my first few coats and then finish with a gloss coat
Sure you can. But most people do exactly the opposite.
I just paint stipped and then sanded down the outside of our wooden exterior door. The inside side of the door was never painted and has a “medium wood” finish. We also have a storm door, so the door is not completely out in nature. I would like to stain the door on the outside side a little darker to match the shade on the inside side, and I would also like to treat it so that it can withstand cold temperatures, etc. Considering that a paint thinner has been used, is a gel stain better than oil? Should it go directly on the wood? Then spar-urathane? Sorry, I’ve never finished a door before!
Hi Tamara. You say a paint thinner was used? For what exactly? I assume from your description that the door has been stripped completely and you are dealing with raw wood. Assuming that’s the case, I would lightly sand the door with 180 grit paper to smooth out the surface. Then you can apply your stain. Gel stain usually is an oil-based stain, only its thicker than a regular stain. Gel stains are very easy to use and give great results. Just be sure to buy a high quality stain because some of the products out there are what I affectionately call, “cans of poo”. :) General Finishes has a fantastic line of gel stains and I recommend them highly.
Once the gel stain dries and the color looks good, then you can proceed with your exterior varnish application.
Hope that helps.
I used Helmsman Spar Urethane on my front door, and it worked out great.
My question: I also used it inside in my office, over an old stain/polyurethane. Most areas look good, but some spots dried with a milky-looking film on them… Any idea why this happened?
Ron
Unfortunately, that is usually a sign of trapped moisture. Do a little Googling and you’ll see about 100 different remedies for pulling that moisture out. Do you recall it being particularly humid when you applied the finish?
We purchased a new (very expensive) Plastpro fiberglass (w/ Alder-type grain) entry door (South facing) last May, and had a very reputable door finisher apply Minwax Gel Stain Chestnut (3 coats) along with Helmsman Spar Urethane Clear Satin (3 coats).
The finisher is from Florida, so he’s very knowledgeable about the sun damage that can befall entry doors, and as such, he recommended the above products/coats. I believe it took him over a month to achieve the results he was going for, as we were unable to use our garage for that entire time since he was using it as his workspace.
The door looked absolutely beautiful. We were thrilled. He said we would need to have him apply a new coat of Spar Urethane every couple of years, but yearly would be fine as well just to be on the safe side.
We’re a little over a year now, and we have what appear to be about 30 or so very tiny speckles showing up on the top half of the door closest to where our coach lights are. At night, when we have our lights on, there are bugs everywhere. We’re thinking these are bug droppings/residue on the door, but they will not come off. I’ve used a very soft micro fiber cloth – (1) w/ Dawn soap, (1) wet for wiping off and (1) dry – and nothing! I also have what appears to be a smear mark. It’s not in the grain. Wasn’t there before. And it’s not a scratch of any kind. But if you look at it from the side when it’s overcast, you can see it. There’s also a little cloudiness.
I’m having him come over next week to reseal the door and take a look at these issues. Can you shed some light on any of this – the speckles, the smear?
Thank you so much! We’re into this new door a good $2K.
Hi Lisa. Sorry to hear about the trouble you are having with the door. If you read through the comments above, you’ll see that other folks have had issues with Helmsman. Nearly every time I hear an issue with speckles, cloudiness, or flaking finish, they are nearly always using Helmsman. Minwax is clearly the biggest name in finishing out there, and its unfortunate. Some of their products are ok, but most are not. So I can’t say for sure that the Helmsman is to blame specifically, but I know I have never heard a similar complaint from people who use Epifanes. At this point, I would let the finisher do his thing since he applied the material in the first place. Depending on how deep the marks are, he might have to sand down quite a bit and reapply the finish. If you have a choice, I would recommend going with the Epifanes instead of the Helmsman. It would be best to have nothing but Epifanes on there but at this point that might be pretty tricky for you. So putting the Epifanes on top of the Helmsman is better than no Epifanes at all.
Good luck and let us know what the finisher says.
Whisperer — I’m in the process of refinishing some badly weathered canoe gunwales (the wood trim around the outer edges of a canoe), and am thrilled to find this thread where I’ve learned about Epifanes. Are you familiar with their “Rapid Clear” version? I like the idea or not having to sand between each coat, and the quicker drying times. If I use a cloth to apply this, would it need thinning? I’m wondering if it’s just a pre-thinned version of their standard “Clear Varnish.”
Hey Peter. I have never actually used their Rapid Clear product. But from what I read it doesn’t seem to be in a wiping formula. So I would definitely recommend diluting it at least 50% if you plan on wiping it on. Epifanes is pretty thick stuff. Bottom line is if it pours somewhere between honey and thick syrup, it needs diluting.
Good luck!
Hello,
I have a douglas fir wood deck, in Las Vegas (hot and dry or cold and dry), I have sanded the deck down to bare wood and stained it today. As soon as it is dry, I am going to apply the Helmsman Spar Urethane, clear gloss. After reading some of the ‘issues and concerns’ above. What is the best recommendation for the application and how many coats?
Thank you!
Heather
Hey Heather. What you’ll notice with many of the posts and replies here is that its not necessarily because the application technique that people are having problems. I truly believe a large part of it has to do with the product itself.
Epifanes Marine Varnish.
And I would just follow the manufacturers instructions for the application method and coats. You have a whole deck to do so if you are diluting and wiping, as recommended in this article, you’ll be there a loooong time. lol Now if you do go for the Epifanes, you might want to stop short of their recommended number of coats. But you can decide for yourself when you have a few coats on. If it looks good, then apply one more coat and call it a day!
Hello,
Thanks for the wealth of information you have provided on this site. Its a great service that you are providing. Here is my current dilemma…
A few months back, and at quite an expense, I had a nice set of oak sideboards and an oak headache built for my pickup truck. I elected to finish them myself thinking that I’d save some money. I sealed them [I believe mistakenly] with CWF-UV deck and siding sealant. In a short matter of time, the oak developed grey/black spots, I assume from moisture/mildew.
At the moment, I’ve disassembled these parts and have been sanding them with 60 grit trying to remove as much as I can of the previously applied finish. I’m afraid, however, that the wood will never be as “clean” as it was when new. No matter how much I seem to sand, the wood does not take on an even shade. I’ve almost resigned to applying a very light stain. I want them to be as close to natural as possible.
What procedures do you recommend to prevent stain blotching? I’ve read, here, that gel stains are preferred. Also “1# cut shellac??” sanded to 180, what does this mean. Finally, what finish do you recommend for these items? Epifanes?
Thanks, Jason
Hey Jason. I can’t comment much on the CWF-UV, because I am not familiar with it. But since you don’t like the results, (black spots are no fun!), its good that you are stripping it off. Now there’s nothing wrong with applying a light stain to event things out a bit. Something like a Godlen Oak color looks relatively natural and might just do the trick for ya.
And with oak, in general, blotching isn’t a problem. Woods like cherry, birch, maple, pine, and poplar are really the blotchy woods. So I don’t think you really need to take any precautions in that area. That said, I do think a gel stain is a great idea. Its a thicker formula that allows you to push the color around the surface and selective darken lighter areas and lighten darker areas. And the color is usually nice and vibrant. So I would definitely go with a very subtle stain in the gel formula. General Finishes is my favorite in that arena.
As for the finish, I would recommend either Epifances, or possibly a 2-part sytem like CPES. This is an epoxy sealant that many folks use under the epifanes. I just started working with it but it seems to make the wood all but bulletproof! Good luck!
I have been working with Helmsman clear gloss urethane on my turkey calls for the last three years. I learned through trial and error the best finish was achieved with a gentle sponge brush application, sufficient dry time, and very light wet-sanding between coats with 400 grit sandpaper. NEVER try to speed up the drying process with a hair dryer, unless you want to sand bubbles out of your work for hours.
I have, however, now noticed that the urethane has substantially yellowed over time, and in areas where I’ve used acrylic paints it looks BAD. Is this “Epifanes” that you talk about the best answer? I need something forgiving, that will work over acrylic paint, and that looks like a clear candy shell when I’m done.
Thanks, Bryan
Hey Bryan. Although Epifanes is a better overall product, it won’t really solve your problem. The yellowing you see is really just the nature of oil-based varnish. If you are looking for something that doesn’t yellow, you might want to look at water-based products. General Finishes makes a product that I am very interested in working with just to see how it holds up outdoors. Its called Exterior 450: http://www.rockler.com/product.....;sid=AFN86
Now I can’t speak from experience on this one, but it certainly might be worth a shot and should be fully compatible with your acrylic paints.
You also might want to look into some forums where people discuss things like fishing and hunting. You might find a few folks that make lures and other items that will see a lot of outdoor use and handling. And I am sure this is an issue they have to address all the time.
Good luck!
Just purchased a new unfinished mahogany door. We where going to use a Miniwax gel stain (mahogany color) and finish it with Epifanes as noted many times here.
Should we also cut the Epifanes to 50% or less and would you recommend the dewaxed shellac following the stain to seal in the natural oils. Is that just 1 coat of undiluted shellac?
Hey Peter. With a mahogany door and a Minwax oil-based stain, there is really no need for shellac as a barrier coat. I think you’ll be fine without it. And for Epifanes, you will probably want to dilute it. The stuff is super thick and even for a brushing application, the manufacturer recommends starting with a diluted coat and working your way up to full strength. So if you are brushing the stuff on, I would recommend diluting 50% and brushing on several coats. if you are wiping on, I would probably dilute ever further, maybe even 75% (I’m not kidding when I say the stuff is thick). Hope that helps.
Marc – thank you so much for the helpful advice. I have been searching for the best way to re-finish my exterior door. It is less than a year “new” and receives direct brutal western Florida sun without any type of rain overhang. It was originally coated with 3 layers of Helmsman Spar Varnish and it is already starting to lightly peel and discolor. I have included a picture on my site http://bungalowagogo.com/oh-dear-daisy-cottage/ that shows a bit of the discoloration on the left side. With your recommendation, I am going to order Epifanes Clear Gloss Varnish and try again. Is there a way to lighten the gloss sheen since the rest of my trim work is not glossy? Or is gloss best for weather protection? I appreciate your advice.
Stunning entryway! Wow. Sorry the finish is starting to go south. Yes I would definitely recommend Epifanes and as far as the gloss goes, it actually is the best in terms of protection. At least in theory, the more reflective surface from the gloss experiences less breakdown from UV light. But Epifanes does make version of their product with flatteners in it to dull the sheen. What you might consider doing is putting a couple coats of gloss on, followed by one or two coats of their matte formulation: Epifanes Marine Varnish.
I just put up about400sf of T & G stained ceiling on a front porch. I decided to stain the boards first and then apply the finish after they were up. What would you suggest as the best product and method for finishing this. I would prefer to spray if I can but am open to other options. Just seems like spraying would be best for this large of an area and I’m not sure about rolling/brushing on a finish on a ceiling like this. Plus the V-notches would make rolling a little difficult.
Thanks, ken
Hey Ken. You know, I actually did that very thing at a neighbors house when they had it built. The builder insisted I use this lacquer-based stain product, which I applied by HVLP. After the color was set, I wasn’t comfortable leaving the lacquer as the topcoat, so I hit it with a diluted marine varnish. Since it was the ceiling, I wasn’t to concerned about a little drip here or there and if the surface was a little rough, it didn’t matter. So if you have those same luxuries, I would so go for the HVLP. Much much easier and faster than just about anything I can think of.
Thanks…that’s what I wanted to hear. Yes, I do have an HVLP and have sprayed a lot of water based finishes with it in the past but never anything this thick (marine varnish). Based on your previous posts above and other reviews it looks like the Epifanes is the best product out there. Any thoughts on how much to thin it for the HVLP and how much I’ll need for a 400sf project like this. It won’t be exposed to direct sunlight or moisture so I’m thinking I probably don’t need as many coats as I would otherwise. Your thoughts?
Well, Epifanes is pretty darn thick, so it depends on the power of your spray system. I would at least start by thinning 50% with naptha and see how it goes.
We recently added on to our house and purchased unfinished Mahogany doors. I used oil-based Minwax stain and have put on the first coat of Helmsman spar urethane. It has been rather cold here in Kansas lately and I don’t have the luxury of a heated garage, so am applying the stain and finish in temperatures between 20-40 degrees. I applied Minwax fast drying urethane on baseboards, etc, that we will have in the house and didn’t have much problems with the finish drying (able to sand and 2nd coat in 24 hrs) in the same conditions, with fans. After the first coat of Helmsman still being tacky in a several areas after 24 hrs, I began my researching to make sure I hadn’t made a serious mistake. I ran across your blog, which is excellent~!! From an earlier post above, I’m concerned that I may have some problems with the doors later when the weather warms up and or when I start heating that room of the house. I only have stain on the inside of the doors right now, but wanted to get your opinion on whether it would be okay to apply the finish in the cold temperatures or wait and apply the finish after the door is installed- even though it would be more difficult due to the potential of runs, weatherstripping, etc.
P.S. About 10 years ago, I refinished our existing front door and applied gloss Helmsman spar urethane – the door is on the south and has had exposure to direct sun in the summer time. The finish is still almost as nice as the day after I applied it. I’ve never used Epifanes, but may switch after reading many of your comments. [perhaps you are an undercover salesman for Epifanes *smirk*!]
Haha, I only wish I worked for Epifanes. Considering all the business we probabaly send their way……
Honestly, my distaste for Helmsman doesn’t actually come from my own experience. Its from the numerous stories I hear every week from folks who used it and have trouble. That’s not to say the product is complete evil, but a large number of folks are having issues with it. Never heard one such complaint from people using Epifanes.
But enough of that….on to your issue. Frankly, I think its way too cold to apply any finish. The recommended temps for applying stain and poly are in the 70′s. By the time you get down to the 20-40 area, I would be afraid for the end result. In addition to a long cure time, I would have to imagine the integrity of the finish and bond could very well suffer as well. So if it were me, I would wait until the temperature gets at least into the high 50′s and 60′s before I even thought about putting a finish on it.
But if you DO decide to finish it, I would apply very light coats, diluted with naptha. Hopefully that will help it cure faster. But again, recommending that goes against my better judgment.
I have maple treads that I stained and used a water based poly 5 years ago. Needless to say…the stairs look like crap now. They are quite scratched up. Can you use anything over the water based poly? I wasn’t sure if I roughed it up using sandpaper if I could then apply something over it. I would like to darken them up just a bit to match the floor downstairs. The floors were pre-finished before they were installed. I am not sure if that is asking too much though.
Please help.
Thanks
Fred
Pretty much any fully cured finish can be topcoated with another finish. Not a bad idea to rough the surface up a bit and give it a very light sanding. That will also clean up the surface flaws and dirt. Wipe away the dust with a damp rag and apply your finish. As always, test in an inconspicuous area first to make sure it looks the way you want it to. You can tone the stairs a bit if you have the right equipment, which might not be feasible. Or you can use one of those poly products with color already added. I hear mixed things about these but it might be just the ticket for you. Something like Polyshades. Again, test before committing to the whole project.
My question is, could I use a spar polyurethane on kitchen or bathroom cabinets? They come in contact with plenty of water and other substances and need regular cleaning. I know on the containers it says that the spar polyurethane is not intended for inside use except for window frames/sills. Is there anything in the spar polyurethane that would be harmful if used say on the kitchen or bath cabinets. Parts of the cupboards come in contact with sun each day and the original finish has wore considerably and thought maybe the spar would be better for that and the water contact. Thank you!
Hi Virginia. You can use it inside if you like, and on any piece of furniture really. Its generally a little softer than your standard polyurethane, but a few thin coats will still give you a heck of a lot of protection. I would just avoid piling it on real thick as that tends to look….well…not great. So you might consider the wiping method described in this article. But to reiterate, no real reason you can’t use the stuff inside.
I have applied system three general purpose epoxy to wormy chestnut interior stair treads and have a very uneven surface. It hasnt been a good experience. Now want to get a satin finish on them. Best suggestion
Hey Jon. What do you mean by “uneven”. If the epoxy caused there to be light and dark spots, the only way to fix that is to either sand it back or cover it with some sort of stain. But again, its hard to say without knowing exactly what this unevenness is.
I applied general purpose epoxy as a topcoat over minwax stain. Material was too thick to get down into small beetle holes in the chestnut so I applied “mirrorcoat” product over that. In some places the mirrorcoat appeared to pull back off the general purpose so I have crater type effect. I will probably have too sand off mirrorcoat. $$$$ wasted. Can I apply regular satin polyurethane over this?
If you let the finish cure completely, then apply the finish of choice, you should be OK. With so many things on the surface though, sometimes its better to just start over. But if you are willing to give it a shot, sand the surface back to level out those craters, then apply the satin poly. You might try this on one step first, just to make sure you get the results you want.
Thanks for your help. I will definately be back to your site. I have never had such rapid helpful responses online. You are a huge help for us wannabe woodworkers.
Thanks Jon. Good luck with your project!
I’m glad I found this site. I am actually working on the inside of our horse barn so am dealing with a LOT of wood. It is stained and because of the cooler temps I’m waiting for it to finishing curing. Two walls were previously stained so I started putting the Helmsman Spar semi-gloss on it. This is more of a rough cut wood that we know won’t end up perfect, but are just wanting some extra protection from the spar. The first coat went on well (for what I was expecting at least) and is fairly rough, which I also expected it to be because of the type of wood. Question is, do I need to sand between coats if it already has a rough feel to the finish? Isn’t sanding to rough up the layer below so it has something to stick to or am I misunderstanding? We have TONS of wood and I can’t imagine sanding between each.and.every.layer. It gives me nightmares. :) So, will not sanding ruin it? Thanks!
Hi Danielle. If you don’t mind the rough texture, there is no need to sand between coats, as long as you are applying them within a day or two of one another. If you let it cure for three to four days, I would definitely give the surface a little sanding to give the urethane a mechanical tooth. That should help adhesion. But again, if you are applying a coat per day, there is no need to sand unless you want a super smooth finish.
im appling minnwax helsman spar urthene to a new cedar deck what would be the best and fast way to apply it
Hey Lance. My wiping recommendation is really intended for furniture. You’ve got a lot of real estate to cover so I might go back to a brush for this one. You might even consider spraying if you have the means.
Would you apply this same “thinned” method to exterior doors like these? – http://www.woodstarproducts.co.....cts_id=198 or would the full strength application be better?
Hi Kelly. The thinning method really just simplifies the process and makes it so that you have fewer drips. It makes the process of applying varnish much easier for a novice. So if you aren’t comfortable with a brush, this is an excellent way to do it. Just keep in mind you are actually applying less varnish to the surface, so it takes more coats. On some applications when you want a nice thick film, the wiping method wills simply take forever. So you might be better off with a brush and full-strength material. But ultimately its up to you.
We are currently in the process of finishing our new Pella windows. They are pine and we have used oil based wood conditioner and oil based gel stain and are pleased with the color and how they have come out. So my question is what is the correct finish to use on them? I’ve read that spar urethane provides more UV and moisture protection than a standard polyuretane. So is spar the recommended product over poly for windows? Or given the windows aren’t directly exposed to the outdoor elements is poly sufficient? My second question is whether oil-based provides a better finish or protection than water-based. The odor of the stain is really bothersome to me so I’m assuming the varnish will pose the same problem; however, I don’t want to sacrifice the finish or protection if oil-based is in fact better. Also, I’m not sure if the oil-based will change the color as I’ve read it can have a yellowing effect. The finish we went with is provincial just to give you an idea of how light/dark the color of the wood is right now. Any advice you have on how best to do this finishing project would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Regular poly would be sufficient, but since it is a window and will likely get a good deal of sun exposure, its not a bad idea to go with a spar varnish for the added protection and durability. But you certainly don’t have to. A standard interior varnish will probably be just fine. And generally speaking, an oil based finish will be more durable than its water-based counterpart. Yes it will have an odor for a period of time until it completely cures. The more fresh air you can get to the area the better. And yes the oil based poly will bring a bit of an amber color with it. But most folks like the warmth the finish brings to the wood. Water-based finish won’t change the color at all, and as a result are usually described as “lifeless”.
So if it were my house, I would simply give the windows a few coats of an oil-based wiping varnish. Minwax is probably the easiest to find.
Thank you for your quick response…much appreciated! Just a couple of follow-up questions. So, I’m assuming you would use a wipe-on poly since I haven’t seen any spar urethanes that are wipe-on? Is it true that you will need more coats if you use this method? Also, you said that a spar varnish could be used for the added protection and durability. So are there drawbacks to using spar versus a standard interior poly and that is why many just go with the poly for a project like this? Can you use a combination of spar and poly and/or combination of application? ie. brush on the first 2 coats and wipe-on the last coat for a smooth finish? I am planning on doing light sanding with at least 220 grit sandpaper in between applications regardless. Thanks again for your help!
You can make a wiping formula from any varnish/poly simply by diluting it with mineral spirits. But you are right, you won’t find a wiping version of a marine or spar varnish on the market (at least that I’ve seen). Spar varnish is a finish that remains a little more flexible, which is why it better for outdoor conditions. Some may think its a little too soft for interior applications. Other folks I know love using the stuff on indoor furniture. So its kind of a personal choice. But generally speaking, I typically use indoor formulations on indoor pieces. You can combine them if you want as they should be compatible. But I would probably just pick one and go with it just to keep things simple.
You can definitely brush coats on if you want to build up a thicker finish fast, then wipe on the last one or two if you want. But if you wind up with any brush marks, you’ll still be able to see them after your wiped-on coat.
Great- so it sounds like the oil-based wipe-on interior poly is your recommendation. Is 3 coats of this sufficient or will more be needed if we don’t use a brush application at all? Thanks again for all of the great advice!
I would say 3-5 coats. But you will need to decide how much of a film you want. The great thing about wiping varnish on like this is that you can stop as soon as the film looks thick enough. Sometimes with brushing, you realize after its too late that you’ve gone too far.
Boy, this is a really good page. I really appreciate you helping us DIY’s. My question is, and i am sure it got answered somewhere in the giant list of questions, is i have applied three coats of spar urethane to a desk that we painted. It looks great but, once again, those pesky dust particles have shown up. i understand that i can use 220+ grit sandpaper or very fine steel wool(000), but wont this leave scuffs on the surface? is there a method to the madness? Thanks for all your advice! Also, i am ready to have this thing completely finsihed, so any other finishing suggestions will be gladly welcomed. thanks again!
Hey Dylon. These problems seem overlooked by most finishing instructions. There will almost always be little dust nibs in the final coat. Even if we talk all the standard precautions, its still going to happen. So what I usually recommend doing is waiting a few weeks. Use the piece at little as possible and give that urethane time to completely cure. After a couple weeks, I like to go back and lightly buff the surface with a 2000 or 4000 grit abrasive pad. Festool sells these under the Platin line of abrasives. This will help knock down the little nibs, smoothing out the surface, but it won’t make any visible scratch marks. Pretty nifty.
August 11, 2010
You speak highly of Epifanes… Can that be thinned and wiped on just like what you’ve said using Helmsman especially on a Fiberglass entry door. If so, what would be
the thinning agent of choice… mineral spirits ? I think I’ve read that Epifanes is pretty thick…
Yep. You can thin it using anything like mineral spirits, naptha, or paint thinner. I usually prefer mineral spirits. And you are right, the stuff us SUPER thick. So if you are going to wipe it on, you’ll need to thin to at least 50%, if not a little more.
I just completed a fiberglass entree door using Epifanes and I think it turned out great. However, I used the Rapid Clear version which does not require sanding in between coats and can be re-coated in 4-6 hours (if I remember correctly). So, I was able to put on two coats a day easily even with the high humidity here in Florida right now. I also wanted to add that the Rapid Clear is not very thick at all. This is the first Epifanes product I’ve used so I don’t know how it compares to the regular stuff but based on your previous comments I’d say the Rapid Clear version is not near as thick. I used it on my T&G stained porch ceiling a while back and was able to roll and wipe it on without thinning at all. I did thin it a little this time however just to give myself a little more open time since it was so hot outside. I actually just used a china bristle brush and did not have any brush marks at all. I have a large front porch so the door is not in direct sunlight for very long each day so I just put on three coats. This gave a little more natural look but still has a good coat of protection.
Hope this helps.
Ken
I’ve learned quite a bit from all your posts. I’m going to be finishing some replacement window sashes and wanted to know the best spar urethane to use; how many coats; how much to thin each coat. The windows get constant moisture when it is cold outside (Wisconsin) and the bottom wood deteriorates very quickly. I know you recommend Epifanes. What about Varathane (made by rustoleum)? Any preference for a varnish stripper ? I’ve used the “safe” type with success. One last question, some of the wood surrounding the window has turned black. Can I “bleach” the wood ? If yes, what do product do you recommend.
Thanks for your help.
Hey Johnny. I don’t have much experience with Varathane so I will stick my my usual recommendation of Epifanes. This post is all about thinning the varnish for easier application. But if you want the most protection possible, which it sounds like you do, I would follow the instructions on the can. The wood will surely last longer if you do.
And I don’t really have a preference when it comes to stripper. I haven’t stripped anything in years. But I used to use the more environmentally friendly stuff. Took a little longer to work but it still worked, and I didn’t have that nasty methylene chloride stuff in the shop.
You can definitely bleach wood, but I can’t be sure what the results will be. There are products out there specifically for bleaching wood, or you can just buy oxalic acid. It may also be worthwhile to simply try sanding the darker areas. Only bleach as a last resort.
Hello,
I am a remodeling novice and will be purchasing oak baseboard to attach to some tile in a bathroom. In addition to the extra moisture in a bathroom from the shower, toilet and sink, some of the baseboard will be outside the bathtub and could be dripped on.
I assume I should apply the unfinished baseboard to the tile first with plenty of glue (like a PL Premium or Liquid Nails) to get the best seal between the wood and the wall and then stain and apply a spar urethane on to the exposed sides. I briefly thought that I should put the spar urethane on all sides but after giving it further thought I now think it is better not to put any on the back side to allow for a better seal against the tile.
Should baseboard purchased from a big box store need to be sanded first? If yes, what grade do you recommend using?
Do you have any recommendations for a better way? Any specific product recommendations for the adhessive or protective coating?
Thanks.
Steve
Woodwhisperer, you are the expert using Epifanes, what does the “can” say on how to apply to make the wood last ?
thanks again.
Johnny Mack
I wouldn’t call myself an expert at all, :). But I haven’t read a can of Epifanes in years. I rarely follow the instructions. But if I remember correctly they recommend applying with a brush at certain dilutions. I just don’t recall the exact details.
Hey Steve. Yes I would definitely sand the baseboard lightly with 180 grit paper before finishing. And since you are trying to bond the baseboard to tile, I would probably use construction adhesive like liquid nails. The good thing is that stuff binds to just about anything. So I probably wouldn’t stain the back of the baseboard (just the front), but I would apply a light coat of your spar urethane on the back side. Just enough to seal it. Then proceed with your desired number of topcoats on the front. After the finish is dried, go ahead and attach the material to the tile. Again, the construction adhesive should be able to bond these dissimilar materials.
So Mr. Woodwhisperer, how would you personally finish windows frames as I described with the Epifane ? Hate to put you on the spot, but tell me exactly how you would put each coat on, dilution level, application method, and whatever else I might need to know. Please don’t dodge the question. You know what you would do and if you don’t, think about it in relation to all the wood finishing you’ve done and give me your best step-by-step instructions.
Hey Johnny. If it were me, I would probably just buy a can of Epifanes and read/follow the instructions. Why in the world would I be dodging a question?!?! I simply don’t have Epifanes recommended application instructions memorized. I know it involves a brush and starting with diluted coats and eventually building up to full strength coats. But I don’t have any on hand so I don’t have the instructions in front of me. The product works very well so even if you use fewer and thinner coats than recommended, it still works great. But you sound like you want the most protection possible, in which case the manufacturers instructions are probably the smartest way to go. My personal methods usually wind up with a surface that looks better to my eye, but won’t be as protective.
Now if I really wanted to protect a piece of wood as much as possible, I might consider sealing the wood first with CPES (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer). Then I would follow up with several coats of Epifanes diluted to about 75% with mineral spirits (brush application).
Hey Steve, I would think twice about putting wood base board trim in a bathroom with a shower. I just remodeled 2 bathrooms and used bull-nose tile pieces for the baseboard. It will never rot and looks great.
Johnny Mack
I keep getting brush marks on my exterior door. I used a wood conditioner with cetol stain. I then used helmsman satin polyurethane. I’ve tried to thin it with about 20 percent mineral spirts and it still leaves marks. Please help
Vito
Well stop using a brush! :) That’s the whole idea of this particular article: use rags to apply the finish. Seriously though, that will really improve the smoothness of the finish. That’s why I recommend it to folks who don’t have a lot of experience brushing varnish. Works like a charm!
Thanks for the information. The rag seems to work fine so far, however I’m not sure if I should cut the spar urethane 20% with mineral spirits or 50%. I went with about 20% and it seems like it is going to take a while. What percent do you recommend? Thanks again for your quick response.
Vito
I usually go with 50%.
Sorry I forgot to tell you it’s an Alder Wood Door with a mahogany stain finish.
Hi Mr. Wood Whisper, I am refinishing an oak front door that has a large oval stained glass center with the two side lite also with long stained glass centers. Staining was a breeze but when it came to the varnishing part(using spar urethane full strength), I used a soft bristled brush and going with the grain I noticed brush strokes. I sanded lightly got rid of the strokes then tryed a foam brush, it worked okay but my real problem areas are around the oval sections and at the very top of the door. Is it too late to try the wipe on method you discribe with the Epifanes and do I need to sand between the layers? would absolutely love your recommendation! Thank you Christine
Hi Christine. Its not too late to switch over to a wiping method. And in some cases, with enough coats, you can get rid of some of the brush marks. But since the varnish really just wants to follow the contours of the surface that you wipe it on, most times you will still be able to see them. So perhaps a little more sanding is in order. Once the surface is flat and smooth, switch to the wiping method. And I usually do sand between coats. Its almost impossible to wind up with a perfectly smooth surface with no dust nibs, and sanding helps alleviate that. You don’t have to be super thorough. Just feel around with your hand for any rough areas and hit it lightly with some 320 grit paper. Wipe away the dust with a rag with some mineral spirits on it, then proceed with the next coat of finish.
Thank you Woodwhisperer and Johnny Mack for your comments. I will try the oak baseboard first as you suggest Woodwhisperer and consider tile as you suggest Johnny Mack as a backup in case the oak does not work out.
I get it that I should use a cloth to apply the stain but I’m unsure how to apply the spar urethane. I expect that spar urethane out of the can is too thick for using a cloth. Which leads me to ask whether I should be using mineral spirits to dilute the spar urethane for use on an oak baseboard in a bathroom and if yes how much mineral spirits to spar urethane do you suggest? How many coats do you suggest? Apparently only one (since you say to use a “light coat”) for the back which will be attached to tile with an adhesive, but I’m less clear about how many coats to apply to the rest of the oak baseboard.
This remodeling novice has found your blog quite educational and I very much appreciate the direct answers. Thank you much.
Steve
Hey Steve. As for dilutions and the actual wipe on process, just refer to the article above. Same thing applies to your baseboards. As for the number of coats, I would say at least 5-6. Wipe on finishes need a lot more coats to build up a protective finish. Now you may very well want to go with more than that for even more protection, but in my opinion, too much varnish just looks like crap. So I’ll take my chances on a thinner finish for the sake of appearance. You still want to avoid contact with water as much as possible. For the back, two coats should probably seal things up adequately. You could put the full 5-6 coats there too if you are so inclined, but I assume you are caulking the top right? In which case you shouldn’t have much water getting to the back of the baseboard. Let’s hope anyway. :)
Hi Steve,
I’d still go with bull-nose tile for the baseboard in any wet (shower-bath) bathroom. But to get a good looking job you really need to hire a pro who will use thin-set mortar to attach it to the walls, make angle cuts with a wet saw, caulk the top and bottom with a nice small bead of silicone, and grout the joints with “sandless grout”.
If you go the Oak route I think you you need 3-4 coats over the stain. I typically dilute the first coat 50% with mineral spirits and put the rest on undiluted. I personally don’t think “Epihanes” is any better than Spar Varathane (made by Rustoleum). Minwax Spar is ok too if you use enough coats.
If the surface you are finishing is relatively “flat” use a foam brush. I use various widths depending on how big the pieces are. Use thin coats. Don’t “glob” it on, especially the undiluted coats. Absolutely sand between every coat. You don’t have to use a lot of pressure when you sand – I prefer fine and very fine “sanding pads” over paper. Much easier to control and you can tap the dust out to extend the life of the sponge. I always vacuum my pieces after I sand with a soft brush on the wand ; this picks up 90+% of the dust. Just be careful that the vacuum doesn’t blow dust. After vacuuming the pieces (notice “pieces” ; you don’t want to do one at a time; set up a table in your garage with a soft cloth underneath ; I use moving blankets) take a clean cotton cloth and pour some mineral spirits on it. wipe with the grain and try not to “double wipe” any area. Then use another clean piece of cloth for a second wiping with mineral spirits. Now your pices are ready for the next coat of varnish. Repeat the steps. It takes time to make wood smooth and have a coat that lasts. I usually use semi-gloss for all coats. If you want a semi-shiny finish use semi-gloss for all but the last coat ; then use Satin for the final coat.
As far as using Epifanes its up to you. I personally don’t think its any better than Varathane Spar. I know people with Boats who have used both (even Minwax Spar) and they say they all last about the same. Its how you prepare and finish the wood that makes the finish last. Epifanes is made in Holland and costs a fortune. Its not worth the extra bucks.
Buy enough poly brushes and toss them if they get saturated with varnish. You’ll see it and feel it. Buy professional oil brushes. Use both during your varnishing if needed.
One last tip: if you are finishing a mixture of hardwoods and softwoods (like pine doors) consider using a “laquer” based stain product like Blond-It. I found that it eliminates much of the “blotchy” effects on the softwoods. Laquer stain dries fast so you have to keep moving. Brush it on (it kind of looks like paint) and then rub it off. Pros like laquer stains because of the fast drying time. They can put a coat of finish on the same day. The big negative of a “laquer” stain is that you need to get the can “shook” by a machine before using it ; even if its a week old. The solids settle out very quickly. Its tough to stir it back in by hand.
I meant Sanding Sponges not “pads” in the previous reply.
1. I stained and finished our new Therma-tru fiberglass front door and sidelights 10 years ago, using Zar teak natural wood stain and Zar exterior water-based poly (satin). I applied 2 coats poly and have applied a renewal poly coat about every 3 years, sometimes needing to touch up the stain a bit. This year, the finish has cracked on some parts of the wood frame and there are some parts of the fiberglass door that bubble up when it rains and blows on it. I’m wondering if I should remove the poly in some areas. Can I do that just to the parts that are damaged? If so, what product should I use? Is it possible to remove the poly and not remove the stain? I am wondering if I should switch to using the General Finishes 450 exterior water base finish you have recommended.
2. We just got a White Mountain ice cream maker and I am considering finishing the wood bucket to keep it nice looking. What would you recommend? The directions say to put 3-4 inches of water in the tub to swell the wood before making ice cream. Should I swell the wood, dry it and then put a finish on it?
Thanks so much!
Hey Janet. Generally, if the poly is starting to bubble and peel, the best repair would be a complete do over. Partial refinishes usually don’t work out that well. I would recommend stripping the finish off the surface using any stripper from the big box store. The most effective and fastest-acting formulas are also the nastiest to work with. Lately, I have found the more environmentally-friendly options to be adequate and must less caustic. I think Jasco was the brand of the last one I used. And most likely, when you use the stripper you will get into the stain layer. Its difficult, if not impossible, to selectively remove the poly without removing a significant portion of the stain. Now I haven’t really tested General Finishes 450 on a long-term project. Seems like good stuff though. But getting 10 years out of a water-based exterior finish is pretty darn good so you might consider using the same product you used before.
Now for the ice cream maker, I need to give the disclaimer that I have absolutely NO experience in this are. And what may be best for wood may not be best for the ice cream making process. So if the instructions say you need to swell the wood, I wouldn’t recommend applying a finish to the interior. Finish is only going to impede absorption of moisture, as intended. But in this case, it sounds like you need the absorption to occur. Now you can probably finish the outside with a few coats of any exterior finish, but that makes me a little bit concerned as well. It sounds like this tub needs to breathe, absorbing and releasing moisture is probably an important part of its function. And finishing only one side of the tub could mess this up as well. So, what I would recommend if you really just want to keep it looking decent, is to use something boiled linseed oil. Give the tub a light sanding to freshen up the surface, then give it a couple coats of BLO. You’ll need to do this periodically to keep it looking fresh. The BLO won’t completely seal the wood but it will give it a somewhat “finished” look. And only do this on the outside. I still think the inside of that tub needs to be raw wood.
Hope that helps.
WW,
Ive recently finished installing a vaulted tongue-and-groove ceiling, so I’m ready to put something on it. Prefer a clear flat / matte finish, and have read so many comments on here I am confused. The wood is white pine and I do not want the wood, nor the finish, to yellow in time. The ceiling square footage is such that I’d like to have as few coats as possible (prefer one). What is your #1 and #2 recommendations…in case I can’t get #1 locally? Thanks for your time.
I think I’m confused too with all these comments, lol. Sounds like the best thing for you is a water-based finish. Dries fast, low odor, and its a ceiling so it won’t get much abuse. General Finishes Exterior 450 would be the product I would try. There are other outdoor formulas from other companies that will work just as well. But I would recommend the water-based stuff as it doesn’t yellow the wood. Here’s a link to the Exterior 450: http://www.rockler.com/product.....;sid=AFN86
If this is an interior ceiling, try their other product, EnduroVar: http://www.rockler.com/product.....;sid=AFN86 I used this on a number of projects recently and the results are great!
Thank you. Would you apply a “primer” beforehand?
Nope. No primer needed.
Great article and I’ve learned a lot just reading through the comments. I am a newcomer to wood finishing and have run into a problem with a project I’m working on. I just recently purchased a 1920′s tudor and I decided to refinish my wood front door as it was cracking and peeling. After stripping and sanding the door to bare wood I applied 2 coats of oil based Minwax stain. I waited the proper amount of time between coats as Minwax recommends. I then applied a coat of Hellsman over the finish. After waiting 24hours something doesn’t seem right as the Hellsman is not tacky to the tough and it doesn’t appear to be dry. Actually when I touch the door it appears slightly oily. I’m afraid that I left the stain on too thick and applied the hellsman over uncured stain. (After reading I realize that I did not properly wipe the stain after applying with a brush)
What options do I have? I am going to try and wait it out to see if additional dry time is needed. If I need to start over what’s the best way to get there? I really appreciate any help you can offer!
Hey Chris. I hate to say it buddy but you might be looking at a strip and refinish. If you didn’t wipe back the stain, curing can be a major problem. The stain contains boiled linseed oil which takes a good amount of time to dry. And when applied in a thick coat, it takes even longer. Add a film finish on top of that uncured surface, and you are looking at a sticky mess for quite some time. The oil under the finish will not let the top coat cure properly. Now sometimes, depending on a number of factors, the finish could eventually cure. But that could be days or even weeks. So if it were my door, I would strip it once again, sand it smooth, and give it several days to settle just in case there is residual oils in the surface. If you can and its nice an powdery and doesn’t gum up your paper, you are probably good to go. Then apply your stain and be sure to thoroughly wipe off the excess. And do not apply another coat of stain or anything until the first coat feels dry to the touch. If its clammy or even a little sticky, its not ready.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news my friend.
No problem I think I pretty much knew that was going to be the response I just needed to hear it myself. I spent so much time concentrating on stripping and prepping the door that when it came to finishing I left out a major part by not curing the stain enough and or putting it on too heavy.
Strangely its not sticky its just slightly oily to the touch. I ran a 0000 steel wool over it and it actually smooths the finish out. It seems like it had dried but the wet stain appears to be keeping the spar urethane a little oily. I am concerned that it will fail eventually so I guess it’s back to the garage for stripping again. Thanks so much…
Hi Marc, thanks for all the great info!
I too am finishing the interior side of Pella wood (pine) windows. This thread has me leaning towards a wiping application of spar varnish (on top of a Cabot oil stain). Given all of the contours of the window frames, significant sanding between coats is not an attractive option. Is the Epifanes ‘Wood Finish’ product a reasonable option to avoid the sanding? Or, if you prefer their ‘Clear Varnish’ product is their a way to use that without sanding in between applications? Thank you!
Hey Paul. Unfortunately, sanding is part of finishing. Now you don’t necessarily have to sand, but in most situations, the surface will wind up a little gritty and the overall quality won’t be as good. The most important sanding happens at the beginning, after the first and second coats. Once the surface is nice and smooth, your subsequent coats usually dry relatively smooth. So if you don’t want to sand those coats, you probably don’t have to. But if you don’t do the initial sanding, the surface could and probably will feel gritty and rough.
OK, thanks Marc. Do you have any experience w/the ‘Wood Finish’ product or do you stick solely w/the ‘Clear Varnish’?
I haven’t really used the Wood Finish product myself, but I’ve heard good things about it. And for an interior application, it should work great.
Paul,
I am about half done with finishing windows sashes for casement windows on my entire house. Here are some keys to success:
* Pine is very “open” grained and will probably “blotch” unless you use a pre-stain. Have your stain color matched on the same exact type of pine by a paint store like sherwin williams – I used the SW gel stain with Varathane wood conditioner
* I used Varathane outdoor spar urethane. Its got great oils in it and will last a long time on windows. Usually the 1st coat takes 2-3 days to dry because of the quality of the oils in the spar urethane.
* I did not wipe anything. Window sahes are so small you won’t see any build up if you use a high quality china bristle brush and put on “thin” coats. 3 to 4.
* I used steel wool (000) to “sand” in between coats. I vacuum up the steel dust.then wipe down the wood with mineral spirits to get all of the dust off
* Repeat for 3- 4 coats.
* Varathane is already in the can at a very good thickness for wood finishing (made by Rust Oleum)
* You can wipe, but it will take you longer as more coats are needed. Varathane only needs about 5-10 percent mineral spirits added to wipe. (more cans, measuring – to me not worth the additional time for windows. If I were doing cabinet doors or doors I might consider wiping. But I’d probably buy a cheap wagner indoor/outdoor sprayer and spray large items. Faster and looks better than wiping.
Thanks for the inputs John. I don’t see that Sherwin WIlliams has a gel stain so I presume you are using the ‘Wood Classics’ stain?
Paul,
They have a gel stain and its not the “wood classic” stain. The pros use it. You can use it on vertical surfaces and let it sit for more color if needed. Go to a SW store ; they have it, I just bought another gallon for some pine doors I am replacing.
If you ask, they usually give a 20% discount. Its not cheap, but they will match your color and its excellent quality. Painters use this gel stain on new homes.
John
Hi Marc,
We hired professional stainers to stain & poly all the extensive woodwork in our newly constructed house, They’ve done a great job using Old Masters gel stain followed by Sikkens spray-on water-based satin polyurethane, which they sand after 2 coats and it leaves a beautiful finish. However, they sprayed the exterior of our mahogany front door with Helmsman Spar Urethane (gulp!) and it looks fine but is a bit rough. I asked if they were going to sand it and put a 3rd coat on, and the stainer looked at me as though I was nuts and said, “This is exterior. You don’t sand exterior polyurethane.” Really?
I found your site because I was researching whether it is okay to sand exterior poly. It doesn’t appear to be an issue, does it?
My dilemma is that it looks fine as is, although I don’t like the feel so much — and now I fear for its future (due to Helmsman) after reading your blog. It also doesn’t seem like it’s got enough protection with only 2 spray-on coats. (Door does not have much of an overhang and gets morning sun every day in a warm & humid Dallas climate.) What do you think?
Since these professionals are not finished yet with my interior (and I’m very happy with the results there), I want to keep them happy. They have demonstrated that they get easily offended and pouty, and at this juncture I can’t afford that to happen!
So once they are done, I’m willing to tackle this thing on my own if necessary. (I’ll make it the last thing I ask them!) Could I just lightly sand the Helmsman and wipe on Epifanes? Or am I asking for trouble not to sand off the Helmsman completely before coating with Epifanes? And oh lord, that would mean staining again, and it might have a blotchier effect after sanding down…yikes!
Last but not least, I can’t seem to find a product that mentions anything about matte or satin finish from Epifanes. The link you have mentioned takes me to an Amazon page for clear HIGH GLOSS Epifanes. I’m ready to buy some and try it out on a sample piece if I can find it!
Thanks for your wonderfully detailed – and patient – help for all of us. You’re a real find!
Thanks,
Sammy
Sammy,
First of all, I want to clearly state that I respect Marc and appreciate all of his advice along the way. This blog is excellent and I’ve learned a lot from Marc’s replies and input from others.
About a year ago (see 1/26/10 post), I applied Helmsman Spar Urethane Semigloss to my exterior doors. Temps were near freezing for most of the project. However, I really didn’t have much of a choice. I posted my comment/question part way through the project, but decided to finish with the Helmsman instead of applying Epiphanes over the top. A year later, the doors look great. The only issue I have is one panel that expanded this past summer and caused a crack in the finish along one edge of the panel. I don’t think this would have necessarily been prevented regardless of which finish I chose.
I have three coats brushed on. Last two were thinned with naptha to speed drying in the cold temps. Again – I have another door that is on the south of my house that I finished with Helmsman over 10 years ago and it still looks great. It doesn’t have the weather exposure that your door may have, however.
I have not sprayed or wiped poly – only brushed. Have had excellent results – Thin coats, lightly sanded between each.
I’ll let Marc comment on switching brands and any related adhesion issues.
I know there has been negative feedback on Helmsman, but I personally have had good results. I’m a DIYer, not a pro, but I think surface prep has a lot to do with results others have experienced. If it were me, I’d lightly sand and finish with another brushed coat or a couple of wiped on coats of Helmsman on your door. That’s just my two cents.
Marc is the expert with much more experience. Good advice will follow.
Hey Sammy. I’m going to completely agree with Justin here. MANY folks have used Helmsman on their exterior surfaces with no problems at all. If I managed to give a different impression, I apologize. Of course many folks have also had problems with Helmsman and I will still make the claim that Epifanes is better, but it also costs an arm and a leg more. As Justin can attest to, its not a death sentence for your wood items to be finished with Helmsman. :) To address your questions, you can absolutely sand exterior poly. Especially if the finish is rough, a light sanding will help smooth things out between coats. So if you are concerned about the thickness of the finish and the texture, again, I’d go with Justin’s advice: sand lightly and apply another coat or two of the Helmsman. Technically, there is no reason you can’t put Epifanes right on top of the Helmsman, but at this point, I think its just easier to stick with the same material. But in case you still need it, here’s a source for Epifane’s matte formulation: http://www.jamestowndistributo.....te+Varnish
Justin & Marc – You guys are on the ball! Thank you so much for responding *today*, it will definitely help me tomorrow. :) Can you clarify one point for me? On interior poly, my pros sprayed on 2 coats and then lightly sanded (I think 600+ grit), and it left a beautiful smooth finish. (I had never before heard of sanding after the final coat, only heard between coats.)
Would it make sense to do this same procedure with the Helmsman, or do you think it would undermine the protection somehow? Is the exterior stuff a different animal than the interior Sikkens product? If you think it’s okay to sand following the final coat, how many coats should there be altogether?
Thanks so much for your advice! It gives this girl some real peace of mind. :)
Sammy
Glad to help. You aren’t really going to affect the protection by sanding. Well, unless you start sanding aggressively and actually remove a lot of the poly. What you should be mostly concerned about is appearance. The lower the grit, the more scratches you’ll see in the surface. 600 grit is ok for matte finishes, but I prefer to go a little higher when sanding a final coat. I like using 2000 grit paper or better yet, pads. The ones I get are rather expensive (from Festool), so you might be better off just buying the highest grit paper you can find. Automotive stores should carry 1000 and 2000 grit. The super fine grit has a way of smoothing the surface without creating highly visible scratches. And if you have a satin finish, you definitely won’t notice them. So its a perfectly viable way to smooth the final coat after its fully cured.
You mentioned previously that they used water-based finish on the inside, so yes, that’s a completely different animal. But in terms of sanding and surface prep, its pretty much the same.
As for the number of coats, that’s a personal call. Even on a front door, I don’t like a really heavy film. So I’ll take a little less protection in exchange for a door that looks more like wood and less like plastic. But I would say after 4-5 total coats, you are going to have diminishing returns.
Good luck tomorrow!
For many years I have hand *rubbed” my final coat using various methods. If the piece is sealed well even at the joints then I like to wet sand it using 400-600 grit (have to use the black wet sandpaper). Dip your sandpaper in a bucket of water, shake off most of the water, and then sand. Wipe it off with a damp cloth and then dry it. I then go over it with either automotive rubbing compound (wet) or 0000 steel wool (make sure the piece is completely dry first). Using these methods I can actually get a gloss finish from a matt topcoat. I’m not a very proficient sprayer but I like the speed it offers so this method gives me the final appearance I want with just a little extra effort. By the way, you can use this method on wiped or brushed on applications as well. Basically, once you get the topcoat on, the finishing methods/techniques are much like what’s used on an automobile. These techniques are pretty much the same as what Marc discussed but one is dry and one is wet. I’d try both and decide what your own preference is depending on the project at hand.
Good Luck!!
P.S.- I am a General Contractor and I also have a custom closet business. If I have a sub that gets offended because I question a method, technique, or otherwise then they usually don’t get invited back. This reaction tells me that they think they know everything and don’t want to learn anything new. As a contractor and sub-contractor (in the closet business) I am ALWAYS looking for new and better ways of doing things. A good contractor would have done that Google search for you to determine that yes you can sand exterior applications. Almost every night I am searching through sites like this one to get the answers to those things I don’t know (which is a lot). I wish more “professionals” would do thd same. I’ll step down off my soapbox now.
I am urethaning some teak patio furniture and am wondering why the directions say to not apply in direct sunlight. Does this diminish the UV protection? I am using Varathane Diamond Spar Urethane.
Thank you.
Honestly, I have no idea. Maybe because with sun comes heat, and with heat comes a quicker drying finish? I wish I had a good answer for you…
I’m impressed with the information on your web site!!
I have a “sealing” project which is interesting to say the least. I have a friend who asked me to finish two connected “stadium” seats salvaged from an old ball park. He wants to keep them in their present, existing condition for both sentimental and historic reasons. The end product is to be a usable furniture piece for seating in their den and outside deck.
The folding seats are made of wood slats (both back and seat) bolted/secured to wrought iron castings. The entire seats are painted with multiple coats of yellow paint (probably lead based as these are over 50 yrs old.) The seats are in tough shape — w/ chips of paint peeling, some areas worn to raw wood areas but with very little to no wood “fuzz” noticable. Some wood surface areas have “alligatored” but are generally sound. The metal parts are about the same — some rust but mostly chips of paint showing completely coated w/ paint.
I am considering using clear gloss spar urethane coatings (multiple coats) without sanding between coats as this would generally detract from the existing condition as well as time consuming. Both metal and wood with varying degees of deterioration are involved. Considering they wish to use it on their deck (in the sun) occassionally, what would be your advice regarding using spar urethane for this purpose, and modifying the viscosity to ensure penatration, flood sealing (in cracks), to attain a full smooth seal for use as casual seating. I am concerned about thermal expansion (wood/metal interfaces) and UV issues. While the seats are painted a gloss yellow — I want to maintain a clear glossy finish. I plan to apply with a small brush and lightly bluff it at all necessary . Long working time, due to irregulatirties and shape of pieces, and limiting brush marks are of concern. What would you advise on such a project?
Thanks
George
Hi George. Any spar varnish will probably do the trick, but you should know a few things first. One is that simply coating a failing finish could mean bad things down the line. If the paint is chipping, it could cause the varnish to fail pre-maturely. Also, oil-based finishes tend to amber over time. And that will affect the color of the seats. Depending on the final look you want, this may or may not be an issue. One thing you might consider is simply re-painting the chairs. One of the best, if not THE best finish for outdoor projects is paint.
I would like to refinish the exterior doors. Sand, stain and varnish with Minwax Spar Urethane, however, it is currently winter here (Northeast Quebec, Canada). Temperatures in the 0-20 F range. Can this be accomplished without removing the doors and installing replacements doors? I was thinking of waiting for a nice day (30-35 F) and doing it then. Will the product dry enough to allow me to close the doors? Will the cold weather cause poor results? Any help would be appreciated.
Well any time you apply oil-based varnish under 60F, you are going to have much slower dry times and increased chance of crap settling in the finish. So if you are trying to do this with the doors in place, you should probably wait until summer. Even in summer, you may not be able to close the door. Just depends on how fast the finish cures. if its still tacky, I wouldn’t close it. And if it were me, I wouldn’t even think about it until the weather is much warmer.
thanks
Nice site – has proven very useful, and I might be tempted to take your advice about the rag. I’ve had mixed results – some great, some awful with a brush.
I have a general question. I’ve got a kitchen table top that I would refer to as butcher block. Fifteen years of meals and kids has worn the finish to something between non-existent and cloudy. A couple of hot cup spots from the wife’s coffee cup, some water spots, etc…
I ran a trial with the matching bar stools using Helmsman natural oil-based stain, Helmsman semi-gloss polyurethane, and a brush with good results. But that was easy because I was working with such small surface area. Ironically the finish at about 60 degrees turned out much better and dried more quickly than a coffee table I finished last fall in warmer temperatures with the same products. The humidity was approximately the same I believe. Don’t ask me.
Rear ends seem to cause a lot less wear than meals, school supplies, and tea glasses. Here’s my question, as I consider myself a rank amateur who simply has enjoyed refinishing woodwork as hobby.
If this were your table top, and you were looking for the toughest, most durable semi-gloss finish, and understanding that the main purpose of the table is to serve meals, what would be your choice of finish? Polyurethane? Or Spar Urethane?
It would appear to me that Spar Urethane is the better external choice, where maybe polyurethane a better inside choice?
Thanks, and I’ve enjoyed perusing your site. I arrived at this particular article through “googling” and I apologize if this comment is not in the appropriate of place.
Honestly, I would go with a good high quality polyurethane. For interior pieces, the spar varnish diesn’t give you much additional protection. Its a little softer, but that’s about it. So for me, I would like use Arm-R-Seal. Building up several coats with gloss than finishing up my last coat with semi-gloss.
Thank you. I’ll take the advice as soon as the weather warms. One last question. What are the advantages of the gloss as underlying coat? Does it make for a more durable finish?
Not really. Just makes the finish as clear as possible. Also, I have found with some varnishes, too many coats of semi-gloss or stain leads to streaks in the surface.
marc keep up the good work
the owner at the restaurant i work at found out that im a hobbyist woodworker and wants me to refinish some of the tables. what finish would you recommend using. i was thinking lacquer. but don’t have a spray gun and i heard brushing is no good.
thanks
On something like restaurant tables, I probably wouldn’t use lacquer unless its catalyzed. Furthermore, without HVLP I wouldn’t even bother with it. So instead I would recommend an oil-based polyurethane. This should withstand much of the damage a restaurant will dish out.
Well Marc, the weather warmed and I gave it a shot. Everything was great as the table stained beautifully after hours of preparation and mess. However…
Upon completion of my first coat with which I was pleased, our gale force winds in Oklahoma caught a small towel and whipped the small cloth right up on the table. Like a fool I panicked, and took my brush soaking in mineral spirits and tried to smooth the obvious mark. Now, I have about a two to three inch visible “groove” the length of the table. I tried light sanding to see if it would fill with a second coat. It didn’t.
I’ve thought about getting my orbital sander with 220 grit paper and lightly running it over the top of the table to see if I could level the finish.
I hope you’re not going to tell me to strip it again, as I went through enough orbital sanding disks to pay for the table – or so it seemed.
One other question since you’ve been so nice. I’ve used a semi-gloss surface, which I’ve decided would probably look better as satin. I assume there are no problems using satin over semi-gloss – the same as your suggestion to use semi-gloss over gloss?
I can’t tell you how disgusted I was as many hours as I spent getting this thing ready
What a bummer Brent. Bottom line is you need to get the groove out of the surface. While a 220 grit ROS sanding will get you there quickly, it could very well get to there too fast! So I would say stick with a sanding block. That way it keeps things nice and flat and you won’t have any divots when you’re done. And I would try to treat the entire surface equally so that you don’t have unevenness to contend with. Since you don’t have much film thickness at this point, you are probably going to get pretty close to your stain layer so be careful.
You are correct about the sheens. You can put satin over semi-gloss or gloss with no problems.
Thanks Marc – that thought occurred to me too. And the bar stools were so easy. LOL
I am amazed at how fast you respond to these questions. You ought to charge for customer service like this.
I really like your site and wish I had found this before “tearing into” a coffee table I did last summer. Though it turned out great through trial and error, you could have saved me a bunch of heartache and about three futile attempts.
Hey there woodwisperer, what an ripping service you are providing, in reading the above content, I am super impressed with your friendlyness and knowledge.
I’m a bridgecarpenter by trade so chainsaw’s and torches are my main tools, with not much respect paid throughout my carrer to finishing, however… My parents have a pad in Newport Beach on the water and have inlisted me to refinish their fence, and gates, wich are beautiful finished wood. I have steel wool’d the crummy bits off the old finish and have applied a minwax red oak oil-based stain to the surfaces, waited about 10-15 minutes, and then wiped the excess off leaving it dry and shiny. Then waited 24 hours, for it to kick. I purchased a satin varathane spar urethane product and cut it 50% with paint thinner. I hoped to wipe it on with a micro fiber rag, so as to eleminate any beginner brush strokes or bubbles, also it’s alot of sq. footage ( and I didn’t want to tweak out over every square inch). Testing a small area the varnish turened reeally opaque and undesirable, much more than other waterbased( varathane spar urethane) that I had used in the past. And It was drying really fast, leaving a really crummy finish. My hope was to wet a rag in varnish and kind of wipe everything down, leave it oily and it would kick in a few (12-18) hours. Should I use a gloss and then a semi gloss topcoat? am I using too much thinner? Should I be able to apply this in 75-80 degree sunny weather? Thanks.
Hi Brian. I’m assuming the product you are using is oil-based? Hard to say for sure why its really opaque and crummy. I used a few Varathane products in the past and I was never completely happy with them. Not that they are bad products, but they sure didn’t work well in my hands. So you might consider a different brand. Another thing to keep in mind is you might be setting yourself up for some future problems. If the fence was already treated, and all you did was scuff the surface with steel wool, the wood may not be in the best condition to accept an oil-based stain. These stains can have trouble drying if they can’t fully absorb into the wood. But if you notice it was completely dry to the touch within 24 hours, then you’re probably good there.
So yes, you should be able to apply this stuff in the manner you described and under those conditions. Ideally, if you are going to do numerous coats, you probably do want to build with gloss and then finish off with a coat or two of your preferred sheen. Make sure you mix well before and during use. The flatteners will settle fairly quickly. But keep testing on small areas (smart move), until you get it right.
Hello Marc….A few clarifications about your wiping method.
I applied General Finishes exterior 450 stain(water base) to two 8 panel recessed fir front doors with a cotton cloth and a foam brush. I was happy with the way the stain took and went on even though it was tricky with the recessed panels.
Now I’ve got the exterior 450 satin topcoat (water based) to put on these doors and I wonder what you recommend for dealing with the recessed panels and would you still wipe it on or a foam brush or whatever.Also, the can mentions thinning up to 10-20%, but I know you talk about thinning up to 50%. As this 450 satin dries fairly quickly, I could apply maybe 3 coats over one day. I can’t spend much more time then this for this job. What do you think?.
Hey Gus. The material you are working with is water-based and that’s a completely different animal than what we’re talking about. My advice in the article and the above comments relates purely to oil-based varnish. With water-based finish, you really don’t want to dilute past the manufacturer’s recommendation. And I would continue applying with the foam brush if that’s giving you good results. Water-based finishes do not respond well to the wiping technique.
Thank you so much for all the wonderful information! I have a question pertaining to spar urethane… I have made several floor cloths for a friend heavily involved in living history. These floor cloths are essentially canvas which has be stretched, primed, hemmed, then painted with exterior paint. The end result is a painted “rug”. I have been using oil-based spar urethane as a sealer but I am unhappy with the long drying time and the yellowing of the finish. I attempted to use a water-based spar urethane but instead of drying clear it dried leaving cloudy spots and milky streaks here and there. My question has two parts: First, is spar urethane the best sealer to use on outdoor painted canvas? It’s important the finish remain flexible in order to withstand rolling of the rug. Second, how can I prevent the milky appearance of the dried water-based product? Thank you so much for your help!
Hi Terri. Unfortunately, I don’t really feel quality to answer this question intelligently. I never applied finish to canvas so there are some variables at play here that I have no experience with. If you are looking for a finish with a little flexibility, a spar varnish really is one of the most flexible out there. Is it flexible enough for your application? No clue.
On certain surfaces (usually darker ones), nearly all water-based finishes will appear somewhat lifeless. Hard to say for sure what’s causing the streaks though. Are you using a clear gloss formula?
One suggestions I’ll throw out there is to try the CPES product. This material will absorb deeply into the fibers and protect them against abrasion and moisture. Its a great product but a little pricey. Again, cant’t be sure it will solve all your problems but its the first thing that comes to mind when I consider what I might use in your situation.
Hey Marc:
I have been building an outdoor patio table for my son. It is inlayed river rock on a wooden frame. Following installation of the rock, We filled the gaps using an epoxy resin type compound used on bar tops. Once that was finished, it looked like a clear pond of water with rocks in it. Looked great! Went to finishing the top with spar urethane to provide water and UV protection and the clear is still there but there are many ripples, runs and brush marks. After reading all the posts, I believe I will try to thin and either pour, or wipe the next layers on. A few questions however…(1) Do I need to sand the runs and ripples flush with the rest of the table, or will the additional layers make the ripple appearance disappear? (2) Will pouring work over this larger surface (4′ x 4′) or should I just go to the wiping method? (3) What grit of paper should I use to get the ripples out?
Hey Darrell. If you are using a wiping method, you’ll never get rid of the flaws in the surface. The finish will just follow the contours of whatever you apply it to. If you pour the varnish, there’s a good chance it will level. But I have zero experience trying to pour a varnish. A thick layer like that will take some time to dry and you will have to be very careful about dust and insects settling into the finish.
If you decide to sand, I would use 180 to get the ridges down, then work my way up to 320 for a nice smooth starting point. At that stage, when everything is flat, I would then consider wiping on the finish.
I am curious if you aren’t better off just leaving the epoxy as the final topcoat? Its probably just as durable as anything you could put on top of it.
The epoxy I used said for interior use only and is not UV protected. Since this is an outside patio table, I wanted the weather and UV protection. I know the epoxy poured and leveled out well. Was hoping the same would be true for the Spar.
Yeah the only real issue with the varnish is going to be cure time. As for the epoxy, I suppose the UV would be an issue. My advice would be to make sure you are using a really high quality marine varnish for this topcoat. But I fear that a thick coat of varnish is going to be very “amber” in color and will ruin the look of the table….
I paneled the interior of one of my rooms in my home, with redwood panels (rough side up), I stained the redwood with oil based stain and inadvertantly put two coats of lacquer instead of oil based urethane. In the end, I wanted to have a thick satin finish. Lacquer seems like a real thin finish. Is it too late to brush a few coats of oil based urethane on top of the two coats of lacquer on there currently? Are there any special preparations? Thank you for any input that you can provide.
Hey Loren. You can certainly build up a thicker finish with lacquer. In fact, lacquer makes an absolutely beautiful finish. At this point, I probably wouldn’t bother switching finishing. Pick up some satin lacquer and continue to build the finish to your liking. I think you’ll be satisfied with the results.
thanks. unfortunately there are major issues with the that very strong lacquer smell. The lacquer can says that I will need about 4 more coats, whereas the oil based urethane says I will need only about three total.
Also whichever one I use, will I have to sand or steel wool between coats? This may pose a problem being a large surface area and all, and having the rough side up, for effect. With two coats of lacquer already on, the coats are so thin that I can still feel the little splinters of the grain (which I do want to keep).
I’m not sure how my surface will come out if I have to keep sanding between coats, I may lose the splinter grain effect that I wanted.
I was hoping that by using a thicker oil based urethane would probably reduce the odor and require less coats and also reduce the need for sanding in between.
thanks again for the advice
Regardless, would there be any chemical reaction problems by switching finishes?
Hey Loren. The think to keep in mind with the smell is that lacquer is much more offensive at first, but dissipates much faster. Oil-based finishes are a little less offensive at first, but linger much longer. So you have to pick your poison. The finish doesn’t have to be sanded between coats unless you want it to be perfectly smooth. In your situation, it sounds like you definitely want things to be rough anyway, so I wouldn’t worry much about sanding. That goes for lacquer or oil-based urethane.
Yes its true that a brushed on poly will likely require fewer coats to get a specific film thickness.
Now if you decide to switch to oil-based poly, you’ll probably be fine just putting it over top of the cured lacquer finish. Just keep in mind any time you coat one type of finish over another, you do increase your chances of having problems. Just the nature of the beast.
Marc.
Your advice and information was very helpful, personal and thorough.
I will definitely check out your store.
Thank you again.
actually, I have a couple of more questions.
If I do decide to switch over how long do you think it will take to cure and can you give me an idea of a couple of common problems that I might expect?
thanks.
Well lacquer cures within a couple days and poly can take weeks to get up to its full hardness. As for common problems, I don’t really know what you mean. I don’t really think you’ll have many problems in this scenario. Just watch out for drips and sags from applying too much at once.
Hello,
We are in the process of wanting to clean and restain our wood deck and have seen many negative things said about using sodium hypochlorite (bleach) as it will damage the wood. Do you recommmend an oxybleach wood deck cleaner or are the name brand cleaners found in most stores that use sodium hypochlorite okay to use on wood? Is there a specific product you recommend? Also, is there a type of stain that you recommend that soaks into the wood versus sitting on top and being more likely to chip/peel? I know many people who have run into this problem as well. Thanks. Your comments are always very helpful.
HI Nicole. To be honest, deck treatments are a little beyond my area of expertise. There is a whole world of deck finishes out there that I have no experience with. But based on what I do know, I would probably skip the bleach and maybe try TSP (trisodium phosphate). A dilute solution and a little scrubbing should get the deck nice and clean. And I really can’t make a good recommendation on stains, sorry. The stuff I work with primarily is meant for furniture pieces. And typically these products aren’t sold in quantities that are practical for a deck.
We have a huge amount of tongue and groove wood walls inside a new barn that we have to protect somehow and we’d planned to use Helmsmen Spar.I saw the post that another lady made about her barn walls.The amouunt of wood that we have to cover is really unnerving.I don’t think the marine varnish Epifane is available in our area.Nor the General Finish,either.It’s either Helmsmen,or Varathane around here.My ? is: what is the best and least exhausting method to apply to these new barn walls? Thanks
Without a doubt, HVLP. Spraying will get the finish on very quickly. Normally I don’t like to use HVLP with oil-based finishes, especially on vertical surfaces, but if you have a lot of area to cover, its probably your best bet. If you don’t want to buy one, you should see about renting one somewhere or finding a local woodworker that can lend a hand.
I think we’d best rent one for the sections that we want to spray.
HI WW….doing over a friends solarium which is 6 inch redwood boards and glass panels…the old clear spar varnish was applied over bare redwood, and now it has potato chipped and become opaque…whats the best removal of these flakes? after I finish , I’d like to try that epifanes varnish, how many coats for exterior redwood boards?
I would probably start by scraping off the flaking finish, and see where that leads. If most of it comes off, then just sand lightly to remove the remainder of the finish and get it ready for the new finish. If its a little more stubborn, you can try a chemical stripper.
As for the Epifanes, you can always just follow the manufacturer’s instructions for best results. Just keep in mind that will result in a very thick layer of finish, as you might expect for a marine application. So if you want something a little less “plastic”, you might try fewer coats. But this is really just a matter of preference. Good luck!
WW…I think I may have screwed up my front door. It’s mahogany with rectangular glass, panels on the bottom with sidelights and was installed 5 years ago with an easter exposure so it gets sunlight for a good portion of the day, although I have a lot of trees and shade in the summer. It was showing some flaking and wear, so I lightly sanded with 180 grit, followed by 220 grit sandpaper to smooth things out.
Here is where the trouble is…I accidentally used Minwax red mahoghany stain (oil-based) and realized afterward that it was an interior stain. The color matches so well with the original color and the result form the first coat was satisfying. I have not applied the second coat yet.
My question is can I coat over the interior stain with an exterior stain and
then apply a spar urethane or have I completely messed this up? Would it be better at this point to strip the entire door and start from scratch?
Hey Dave. There shouldn’t be a huge difference between an interior and an exterior stain if they are both oil-based. So they should be compatible. I would just hit it with your exterior stain and then topcoat with a high quality marine varnish.
I just got a new bow window and have stained it with Interior varathane premium wood stain and now I just put a coat of Outdoor water base varathane diamond spar urethane on top. I plan on putting 3 more coats on but wonderding if it ok to use Interior stain and Outdoor water base spar urethane.. After reading some of above mades me wonder if I should continue with the water base spar urethane..Is that ok? Will be waiting for a answer.Thank you for all the information.
Hey Diana. If the stain was oil-based, it will be fine as long as you let it cure long enough before applying the water-based topcoat. So if its already done and you aren’t having any adhesion issues, you may as well continue down that path.
Thank you for your fast respond. It has now been 24 hrs. sense I had put the 1st. coat of the Outdoor Water Based Diamond Spar Varathane on. I thought it was dry so went over it with steelwool and now noticed in some of the groves it is a bit ticky. So will it dry with time?? So than can I give it the 2nd. coat?? or do I need to do something else? I want to get this done but want it to look nice.
Frankly, I am a bit concerned that the finish is still tacky. Water-based finishes usually set up completely within a few hours. So I would probably wait until all tackiness is gone. Generally speaking, its never a good idea to throw more finish onto a tacky surface as it will only make the problem worse. So give it some time before recoating.
I mean Tacky..sorry about the misspelled word..
Hello Whisperer, I have a small bar project going. The top is two pieces of the hard wood used in flooring staircases (oak?). It’s been stained with Minwax. So far I have four coats of Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane on top (looks great so far). I would like to now glue down (somehow; is simple glue stick okay since it will be covered up quickly?) a bunch of beer labels and old foreign currency bills – and then add several more layers of this spar urethane over that. I’m concerned from reading around about the documents being altered in a bad way from the urethane. I’ve also considered making photocopies of the labels and bills on “plain” paper so I don’t lose them forever if things go bad, or I want them for something else. Would simple photocopies be even more affected by the urethane? This bar is intended to reside outside, but mostly covered under a porch roof. Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
I am never one to shy away from admitting when I don’t know something. So….I don’t know. lol. Honestly, I really have no idea what the long term effects of the finish would be on the paper products. Sorry Jeff.
I have completed my 4 coats of Exterior Water Base Varathane Spar Urethane on my Bow Window and it turned out really great.The question now i’m asking is the window sil is pine and I would like to put a more durable protection (hard) finish over it. What can I do? Can i put a Polyurethane over this Exterior Water Base Varathane spar Urethane? What kind or what would you recomend? Thank you for all your information..
I honestly wouldn’t coat it with anything else. You already have a polyurethane on the surface, even though it was water-based. Its still pretty darn durable stuff so I think you’ll just create more issues for yourself by trying to put something over it. For a little extra protection, maybe try another coat or two of the same stuff.
Hi Mr. WoodWhisperer!
We, husband and myself, make rustic furniture. I use Waterbased Helmsman Spar Urethane. Love it but it drives me nuts due to random brush strokes. I do the same process every time – half the piece will be fine and the other half full of brush strokes. I go fast, I go slow. Have the temp and humidity just right and still brush trokes. Tried everything. Can I dilute it so it’s not so thick? Would this help? Product is not old. Can’t make any rhyme or reason out of it.
Thanks,
Cheryl
Dilution may help the product flow out a little better. Just don’t dilute too much. No more than 10%. See if that improves your results. But if you guys are making a lot of this furniture, an HVLP might be a smart business purchase. You’ll get the job done faster and with no brush marks at all. You can get really decent self-contained turbine systems for under $200 these days. Obviously you can get higher quality if you spend more, but units like the Earlex are quite capable.
I used this method on a tv cabinet, 50/50 mineral spirits and good quality spar varnish I had. I actually hated the brush marks on my fisrt coats, thats why I used this method. It helped a lot, the color of the varnish spread evenly and it looked great. Anyways I wanted the piece to get a thick film and a little shine on it, so the last couple of coats I mixed the varnish with 10/20 % of mineral spirits and it was great again, sanded in between, just awsome.
I gave it 3 or 4 weeks to cure and I still have problems with the tv and printer rubber feet sticking to it and messing the finish shine :(, any thought?
Well, sounds like the varnish just isn’t 100% cured yet, but based on your time-frame it really should be. We might also consider the face that spar/marine varnish is actually softer than standard interior urethane finishes. This is by design since the finish needs to be flexible for outdoor applications. That’s also why a spar varnish isn’t exactly the idea finish for an interior piece, especially a piece that will receive heavy equipment. So one thing you might consider it top-coating it with a harder interior polyurethane. At this stage of the game I hate to see you mess with a beautiful finish, but there is clearly a functionality issue. So instead of a “do-over”, I would try a fresh topcoat of something like General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. See if that improves the situation.
Hi Woodwhisperer
You rock…!i love that this site exists and all the Q & A.
Here is my Q! I’ve just finished sanding and staining
an outdoor table with The Minwax One step Polyshades
(combo Stain & PolyUrethane-Pecan color) The last time i did this
it didn’t wear well even tho it looked great just after.
So i figured that i needed some Spar on top. NOt sure if
this requires water based or oil based…and have gotten
both Varathane brand from Spar Urethane at HOme Depot
and not sure which to use and if i need to dilute either as you
instruct. If i do this will it affect my stain that has some poly urethane in it?? Directions on cans only talk about applying with brush…ALso, i wanted to get your opinion
and a brief explanation of the oil and water base SPar since
my husband said that his understanding is that the water base Spar
has some oil as well????? Can you please advise and of course thanks for any light you can shed on these questions.
Hi Cari. When in doubt, keep oil with oil and water with water. You’ll avoid major compatibility issues this way. Polyshades is oil-based so you are best off staying with an oil-based spar varnish. The water-based varnish, unfortunately, isn’t quite as durable as its oil-based counterpart. So when possible, stick with oils. The application method is really up to you. The dilution/wiping is simply an option that makes application easier and lessens the learning curve for folks who are new to finishing. Applying by brush will present you with a few extra challenges, like brush strokes and drips, but you’ll build the finish faster (fewer coats).
Fiberglass doors seem like a new thing, but they?ve actually been around for a while. Therma-Tru, a pioneer in the fiberglass door business, started manufacturing fiberglass doors in 1983. therma tru doors offer the strength of steel and the warmth of wood without the drawbacks of either. Wood warps, splits and cracks. Steel dents and rusts. Fiberglass doesn?t have any of these limitations.
Hi:
I just completed a woodblock style clipboard for my sister-in-law. I finished it with spar urethane and got all the predicted results of lines and bubbles, etc. Problem is that I used purple heartwood which responds poorly to UR over time and I really need to get this right (I owe her for help in my own health crisis and my wife’s and now I’m 2 years late!) Anyway, I was thinking of sanding it down, reapplying a couple coats of spar varnish to get the UV protection, then adding an epoxy coating to handle the softness I read about in this string of notes. What do you think, am I nuts? Yes, I’m a rookie. Thanx!
Hey Rich. Honestly, I wouldn’t really worry about UV protection. Ultimately, the piece is going to age as purpleheart does and there isn’t really anything you can do about it. And I’m guessing that the clipboard will stay indoors with some papers on top of it?
Either way, I’d say just pick a finish. If you want to use spar varnish, go ahead and apply 4-5 coats using the wiping method described in this article. If you want to go the epoxy route, just follow the instructions from the manufacturer. But I honestly thing the spar varnish will be adequate.
And if you want to simply use an indoor poly for the sake of simplicity, there’s nothing wrong with that either.
So keep it simple and life will be much easier in the shop. :)
Marc,
I’m preparing to finish a new mahogany entry door. I ordered and received Epifanes woodfinish gloss and woodfinish matte. I’d prefer to not stain the door, but the long stiles on the outside of the door are darker than the rails (in its unfinished state, there’s not much of a difference, but when I wiped the door down with mineral spirits — to reveal what it would look like finished — the difference between the stiles and rails was noticeable, and, to me, objectionable). Any ideas on how to even out the difference between the boards and yet stick with a natural finish? Would thinned shellac as a washcoat help this particular problem, i.e., different boards? Your site is great! Thanks in advance for any help you might offer.
Hey John. Something as simple as a dye or stain could very well bring the two tones into the same family. Shellac really won’t help you much since its just a clear coat. You could use amber shellac or orange shellac, but I’m not sure that will give you the “natural” color you’re looking for.
Also, keep in mind that the wood may change color over time. It could very well even up naturally. And generally speaking, the less you do to the door the better. But if it really bugs you, I recommend a good oil-based stain. Just try to buy a color that doesn’t offer a dramatic change, but brings everything into the same color family.
Marc,
Just wanted to say thanks for all the information you provide on this website. I was looking for information on how to refinish our wood front door and found your website which provided excellent information on how to do it, what to use and the various products / techniques to get a quality job done. We would have had to pay a good amount of money to have the door refinished but your information made it possible for us to do it ourselves thereby saving us a good deal of money. Thank you again for sharing all your expertise and experience with us….it is greatly appreciated!!
Hello, WW. We have a wood garage door that was painted and sealed with varnish. We have completely sanded the door and panel grooves to bare wood. What is the best quality and type of stain you recommend that looks the best and will hold up under intense sun? In summer temperatures go up to 115 degrees with low humidity. We plan to use Epifanes varnish as well. Thank you for all the great information on your site!
Hi Colleen. I don’t really have a specific brand recommendation for you, but I will suggest you go for an oil-based outdoor stain. Head to your local Sherwin William (or comparable store) and ask what they have in outdoor stains. That should get you a decent quality color fast stain that will be good under your oil based varnish finish.
Sorry to be redundant with some of the previous posts, but I just want to get this correct. I am preparing to refinishing double entry wood exterior front doors that have been beaten up by the sun. I am planning on taking your recommendation and using a GF stain topcoated with Epifanes varnish. I talked to GF and they recommended only the Exterior 450 (water based) stain as this is their only true exterior grade stain. You have recommended the gel stain in other posts. I assume this is because it is oil based and is more compatible with the Epifanes (oil based). Am I sacrificing UV protection by using the GF gel and, if so, should I look for a different brand of exterior oil based stain? Thanks!
You really shouldn’t have a problem using their water-based stain under the Epifanes. I would say you are definitely better off using something rated for exterior use.
I used the Helmsman Spar Urethane high gloss for my boat flooring (small area), and now want to put one more coat of a satin finish for the final coat, but I’ve now read online that I shouldn’t of used this for flooring (the can says not for LARGE areas like decks, but no notice about using on floors specifically like it says online :( ) So can I now use another satin FLOORING product for my last coat OVER the Helmsman, or do I need to use the same product of Helmsman SU Satin finish? Thanks for any advice on this!!!!
Hey Glen. Pretty much all oil-based varnishes are compatible. They are all pretty similar chemically speaking. So as long as the previous coat is cured and ready for another coat, you should be fine. I would probably recommend giving the floor a light scuff sanding with 320 grit paper just to rough it up a bit while also smoothing out any bumps or dust nibs. Wipe away the dust and then proceed with your coat of satin.
Helmsman Spar Urethane is TERRIBLE! I have used Varathane for years, but Helmsman was recommended by our local paint store for a new front door. Brush marks, high/low spots and a total mess. I sanded it down and have used VArathane and it looks great. Never again for any Helmsman product.
After reading many of the above I still have a question.
Can you use Zar Exterior Waterbase Poly over Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane as a final coat reason being that the Zar says it does not leave brush marks and is self leveling. Both are flexible and uv protection.
Thank you for your response.
John
I think you are probably better off sticking with one finish or the other for the sake of compatability and simplicity. The oil-based version is going to provide the more durable finish.
Thank you for your reply. Seems like I should have started with the Zar waqter based exterior poly but was afraid to put that as the first coat because of raising the grain to much.
John
Hello! We are installing new pine interior stair treads. We have done 2 coats of red mahogany stain and are ready to add oil based poly finish. I think I am convinced that we should do to 50/50 dilution wiping method. The temp here is probably in the 70 degree range. My questions: How long should we wait in between coats? Should we sand between coats (what grit to use?)? How many coats total? How long should we wait before we install the treads for use (to be walked on)? I would hate to go through all of this cost and time to have them installed and then have the finish damaged when we started walking on them.
Hey Jennifer. Most cans of finish have a lot of this information right on the back of the can. But here are some general guidelines.
Don’t apply more finish until the previous coat is completely dry (no longer tacky or cool to the touch). I wouldn’t start sanding between coats until you have about 3 coats built up. Sanding any sooner could cut into your stain. Sand with 320 grit or higher. How many coats depends on what kind of look you want and the level of protection you require. I would apply no less than three. And I personally wouldn’t walk on them for at least a week. Poly takes time to reach full strength.
refinishing an old Duncan Fife table and I put 3 coats of spar urethane with a brush and sanded between each coat with 220 grit sanding pad. I am still seeing brush marks, so I wiped on the 4th coat and still see them. How can I get these out at this point?
Sometimes, in order to get rid of flaws in a previous coat, you can simply put a thicker/smoother coat over top of it. The problem with wiping is that you are essentially applying a very thin coat. So it is just going to follow the contours of the surface. So you might try applying a thicker coat by wiping and seeing if that improves things. If not, you may need to sand the surface down until all the brush marks are gone and the surface is perfectly smooth. Then start wiping on your coats.
how much sanding? and with what grit… hate to sand all the way back down.
How much depends on what you see when you start sanding. You want to sand until the brush strokes are no longer visible. The problem is this may not just be a texture issue and the “marks” may be embedded down in the finish. So any time you put a coat over it the marks are still visible. But you’ll just have to see what you’re dealing with once you start sanding. I would probably use 180 for this. once you think you have it sanded enough, wipe the surface down with a little water or mineral spirits to get a preview of what the surface will look like with finish on it. Should give you an idea as to whether your sanding efforts were effective.
thanks… will give it a go and see what happens
tried to sand down with 180 and wiped with mineral spirits, but still not getting down to the brush marks. What can do at this point?
Sand more. If the problem is deep below the surface, you’re only choice is to dig deeper. Might be worth a do-over if it is that deep.
Do you mean all the way back to bare wood? Man that will take a lot of sanding.
Hi, Thanks for the site, some good answers here…. I have some plywood that will be outside. I was thinking about oil based primer, oil based paint and final coat of Spar Urethane. Will this work or is there a better solution to protect from water and uv rays…..
Thanks
Honestly, I would just use a good quality outdoor paint and primer and call it done. Few things protect wood better than paint. We usually go to the extent of using a special varnish when we want to use a clear coat. But paint is full of pigments and does a fine job of protecting wood.
Thanks for the advise…..
ardan
Wood Whisperer hello my friend, Just have a quick question for you. In regards to polyurethaning my “fiberglass door” I stained my new “fiberglass” door “Mahogany” using minwax gel stain.. I wanted it a little more “red” but had to use more stain to even out the color, it ended up darker but still came out very nice..
My question now is,polyurethaning the door with “Epifanes” what sheen or which “Epifanes” would you use. Is there one that would bring some “red” out… I know that it will have some amber hues what do you suggest..
What “Epifanes” would you recommend for the “fiberglass” door..
I am in Philadelphia and its only about 50 degrees so I guess I will have to wait about 3 months to finish the door..
Any help would be greatly appreciated, just looking for the best product to finish the door glad I seen your website, I did buy Helmsman Spar Urethane, would rather use “Epifanes” because it’s superior to it..
So in closing just trying to finish the door, which “Epifanes” shoud is use, I know there are different “sheen’s” maybe something that would bring more “red” out in the door, if that is possible..
I appreciate your time and Happy Holiday to you and your family.
Best Regards,
Jim L
Hey Jim. Personally I would just use the standard Epifanes Gloss. As far as colors go, they will all bring the same level of “amber” and warmth to the finish. But if you’re really looking to do something significant with color, you are better off doing this in the stain layer. But for all my outdoor projects that get Epifanes, I use the gloss stuff. Happy Holidays to you as well my friend!
Thank you very much for the quick reply I greatly appreciate it.. In regards to using Epifanes gloss- how glossy is it and when you say the epinfanes will bring out the “amber” color, could you please explain not following… Also about changing the color, the door really came out nice, however I wanted a more “reddish” tone however, I had to apply more coats of the Mahogany in order to even out the color…So I am just going to stick with the color because, I have stained my front and my back door as well, they came out great, in the sunshine you can see the “Red” tones in the door… I am for sure going to take your advice and use it, I am hoping on a increase in weather over 50 degrees.. So I can put my handle on the door or I will be forced to just put the handle on and urethane the door when the weather permits to do so.
I have read that some people dilute the “Epifanes” with paint thinner etc.. In your opinion what is the best application and what kind of brush should I use..
Should I dilute it or just go for it..
Thank you very much for all your time, you are doing a great job keep up the good work..
Any information from you is greatly appreciated..
Wishing you the best today and for the holiday’s as well..
Best Regards,
Jim Lynam
Hey Jim. Their gloss product is about as glossy as gloss gets. The product is a clear coat, and as with pretty much all varnish products, it has an amber hue to it. This usually brings a sense of “warmth” to the project. But on a stained piece like your door, it won’t really be all that noticeable. Unless you add some sort of dye to the mix, you won’t be really changing the color at all.
Any good quality natural bristle brush should allow you to apply Epifanes successfully. And you can certainly dilute it for a wiping application using cloth rags. That would actually be my preferred method. Thanks for the kind words Jim and take care.
Hi Marc
Just found your website and already have it bookmarked. Quick question on finishing Oak bannisters and railings. I used Zar oil based stain and it looks really nice. I was told that hardwoods should be finished with Spar Varnish……used Man O War Marine Spar Varnish semi-gloss full strength w/ brush. Took a couple days for it to dry (thinking I should have thinned it.) Would you recommend thinning the next few coats of varnish? I read that spar varnish should be thinned with pure gum turpentine. After final coat what should I do to wipe out minor bumps w/o screwing up finish. Thanks…..Happy Holidays
Hey Bill. Personally, I nearly always thin my varnish for wiping. Not necessarily because of any particular drying benefits but because it is simply easier to apply and I get better results. You can certainly thin yours if you feel you need a less viscous mixture. And you can certainly use turpentine to thin but mineral spirits, naptha, and paint thinner will also work just fine.
Once the final coat cures, you can always buff the surface lightly with some high grit paper or sanding pads. I like to use a 2000 grit pad and some mineral spirits as lubricant. Gives a nice smooth finish.
And just for future reference, there really is no rule of thumb about using exterior varnish on indoor projects. You certainly can, but most people don’t. Interior varnishes work quite well for interior projects.
Thanks for the advise. I was told that a rule of thumb was varnish for hard woods and poly for softer woods. Can I finish this project off with a rub on poly?
Unfortunately, that advice doesnt make much sense. Poly is just a type of varnish. And generally speaking, you select your finish based on durability requirements and looks and not so much on the wood species itself.
Since you already started with one finish, i would just stick with it at this point just to keep things simple.
With the holidays, I’m just getting around to finishing this project which is banister and spindles. A friend who does a lot of woodworking recommends using 600 grit paper to wet or dry sand and then use a good rubbing compound to finish the job. What do you recommend?
You can certainly do that if you like. Varnish doesn’t rub out quite as well as other harder finishes, but it can be done.
Marc,
Thanks for sharing your great advice. I love your website.
I am refinishing an entry door with Helmsman Spar Urethane using your wiping method and diluting with 50%mineral spirits. The second coat dried with one small white line at a seam. The third coat dried with lots of white lines at the seams in the trim around the four windows. It looks bad. What happened? What can I do? One last thing, what do you sand with between coats using this method?
White lines? That’s odd. I honestly don’t know what that could be. Usually, a white haze is a sign of trapped moisture. But lines seem more like a product of the application. Why they are white is definitely perplexing. Keep in mind that laying down coats of varnish is a lot like laying down layers of plastic wrap. If one layer contains a flaw, subsequent layers won’t necessarily hide it. So if you have a problem, you have to sand down far enough to remove the problem area and then re-coat.
And when I sand between coats I usually start with 320 and work my way up to about 600, going up a grit between each coat.
First i want to thank you for you detication to helping others in your feild of expertise. I am currently making cornhole boards and am having troble finding that perfict finish. I am looking for somthin that i can cover over acylic latex paint that will not yellow. I have foundthat varnish has held up fairly well with the pounding of bean bags but with that customer who want a white board helmsman sapr urethane just is not holding up to my standards. I am also concearnd with thebond strenth to water based acyrlic paints due to the nature or the game. If it was cost effective i would epoxy it all. Please help with this challenge i am having. And again thanks for all you previous advise.
Hi Brandon. The fact that you need something that won’t yellow is the real key point here. Pretty much all oil-based products will. And they generally look like crap on top of latex paint. So I say go water-based for your topcoat or simply use a high quality exterior latex. For water-based, there are many options that will work. One that I have had luck with is General Finishes Exterior 450.
Ok i will try that finish. Thank you very much for your advice.
Hi again. I am sorry I have so many questions. Just dont want to mess up. Reading this article I have learnt about using the rag method for applying oil varnish by thining it. Is there a method to do this with GF 450? if so how?
While some claim to have success wiping water-based topcoats, I’m not one of them. If you need to do something other than HVLP, try a brush.
Some very imformative word on these two finishes! I really have grown to appreciate your work as it took me forever to scroll down the page of questions and replies. Heck I’ll throw one in to, I am making a tray for my cottage which I will bring to the water with drink and stuff. I am leaning towards the spar varnish for its protection against uv and the numerous water bottles that may be dropped on the tray. The only turnoff is when you say it is a softer finish, how softt are we talking. I don’t really want someone to touch it with there fingernails and leave a noticeable mark?
Thanks for your insight.
Greg
Its not really that soft. Just soft enough to be durable as opposed to hard and brittle. That’s why varnish is generally one of the most durable finishes the average person has access to.
Hello, just finished a deck with Brazilian tiger wood. Looks great!
Used a Behr (home depot) semi-transparent sealant, but it is not glossy. Can I use the Epifanes Marine Varnish over it for a glossy finished look? Thanks for the advice. I am in the Central Florida Area of the country.
As long as the previous finish is cured, you should be able to. Maybe rough up the surface a little with some 320 grit sandpaper before applying the varnish. Also, test on scrap or an inconspicuous area first to confirm that there are no adhesion issues and that you really like the way it looks.
The finish was applied 7 days ago. Is that long enough for curing?
Also, what is the best way to apply the Epifanes Marine Varnish on the deck surface?
I will try and let you know the results.
You are the best!
Thank you again
7 days should be adequate. As for application, I generally don’t do deck work so there are probably smarter options, but I would probably use a brush.
Hello,
I want to start buy saying this website is awesome!
I am making a basement bar out of Hard Maple(i have the bar top done, so the question only applies to the skin and the trim…all is Maple). I wanted a Natural look, so i applied Watco Danish Oils instead of a stain. I looks really good so far. I noticed that you advise wiping the Poly with a 50/50 mineral spirts mix.
Will it be OK to mix Varathane (Oil Based/Interior) Polyurethane at a 50/50 mix with Mineral Spirts and apply a few coats over the Danish Oil? If it is, do i apply it in circle motion and rub it in using very thin coats? or do i drag it in straight overlapping line similar like brushing it on? I am confused on the applying technique.
Thank you a ton!
Ryan
Hey Ryan. You should be fine diluting Varathane with mineral spirits and then topcoating danish oil. They are all compatible finishes. Just give the Danish oil a day or two to cure up. Keep in mind that this mix has no raw oil in it, so it will tack up faster than something like Danish oil. You can certainly flood the surface and then wipe off the excess, but I personally like to wipe it on with a folded rag. And like you mentioned, it is similar to the actions when you use a brush (overlapping strokes). This is actually a technique that I cover in detail in my DVD (also available as a digital download): http://twwstore.com/techniques.....inish-dvd/
OK. I will check out that video.
Thank you Sir!
Hello, nice site and great help!
So I hired someone to refinish my wood exterior door, and the problem I’m having is best shown on the following picture:
http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg205/6624/46door.jpg
See those raised blotches in the horizontal part between the indented squares? Blotches like that are on various parts of the door.
There is no varnish on the door at this point. The coating you see in the picture is three coats of Minwax gel stain applied to partially sanded door.
While I think the blotches are from a bad sand job (finish not completely removed in places where the raised blotches appear), the person who tried to refinish the door claims that the old finish “just wouldn’t come off.”
Anyway, now I am stuck trying to figure out what to do with this door. So to my questions…
Is there any type of varnish that will fill-in/float-out these raised blotches so you don’t see them? Or should this door be sanded again? If so, that would bee this door third sand. Is that too many?
Thank in advance for answering.
Unfortunately, if it were my door, I would sand it back down. It is important to get as much of that finish off the surface as possible for not only appearance, but bonding. So that little patch could very well create even bigger problems in the future. It might not…..but it might… Either way, varnish isn’t really going to completely cover that up at all so it really should be corrected. But, the varnish could very well make it a little less noticeable. So it might be worth a try to simply add one coat and see what it looks like.
I am using the same stuff but for a picnic table and benches. Should I apply the spar urethane to all sides before i assemble the tables and benches or just put it together and coat the accessible wood then? Just curious to see what some with experience would reccomend. Thank you
Hi – We have just purchased a beautiful California Claro Walnut slab with live edges that we’ll use as an outdoor table on a southwest-facing patio. It will be covered with a tarp when not in use, but it will outdoors in Southern California all year. I have some finishing experience, but never anything exterior. The slab is bare at the moment, sanded to 220 …
We’re looking for a natural finish (no paint!), not glossy, that will stand up to the sun (and rain) of Los Angeles, and not need to be refinished every few weeks (I’m exaggerating). Every source I’m checked for advice on how to finish this gorgeous (and expensive) piece of wood declares that their unique method is the best and everyone else’s won’t work. Even Epifanes web sites don’t help much – the non-gloss products I found seem to say “interior” …
Bottom line – I’m confused … what sequence of steps with what products would you recommend …? And thanks for this web site, it’s terrific …
Thanks Bob. Of course every manufacturer thinks their product is the best, right? We just have to see through the marketing jargon to figure out what we actually have to work with. Now there is one truth you can bank on: a film finish is more protective than a non-film finish. And I assume when you say glossy, you are not only talking about true gloss finishes, but also the plastic look you get from building up coats of satin and semi-gloss finishes. The truth of the matter is a natural-looking finish is one that doesn’t have much protecting it. So there are certainly options such as Teak Oil, Outdoor Danish Oil, or even an oil/varnish blend of your own design using a spar varnish. All will produce low-lustre finishes that will probably look very nice. But they will also require regular maintenance. With a cover though, you probably won’t need to worry about it more than once every few years. I just used Teak Oil on a mahogany Adirondack chair which I also keep covered. Its a very natural looking finish without a thick film and it seems to be holding up quite well. That might be a way for you to go.
Great site, accurate info, not pretensious.
My issue: I teach middle school Wood Working and have found wipe on poly (Minwax)as the nicest easy finish. The problem is the cost of a quart. So, am I correct in assuming that if I get a gallon of quality poly and dilute it 20-50% with mineral spirits/thinner, I will have something close to what I’m paying $15/qt for now? If so, Yippie!
Thanks,
Ben
You got it! We pay extra money for them to just add extra mineral spirits. :)
Great site, have learned alot.
I am looking to seal the decking on my boat and cannot afford to use the proper sealants (big $$$$$) to-do-so. I used 3/4 plywood (untreated) for the deck, and am wondering what type of Spar (does the finish mean anything to my case, satin, gloss, etc.) to use to get approximately 5 years of use? Also, the plywood will have carpet on it. Within the next 5-10 years I am planning to re-do the carpet, and at that time I will hopefully be able to use the proper sealants to finish sealing the PW. Any thoughts?
Thanks.
Hey Scubby. Unfortunately, most marine are pretty expensive. And sometimes (not always) in the finishing world, you get what you pay for. So I don’t really know if there is an inexpensive solution that will do exactly what you want to do. Boats are definitely a little outside of my area of expertise so I would recommend contacting the folks over at Jamestown Distributors. And also check in some of the boating forums out there. I am sure there are other options out there that I am unaware of and the folks who use them routinely would be the best to ask for advice.
Thank you for your wonderful website! I have a client that has an exterior wood front door that faces north (in Texas). The door developed a “clouded up” look, so they polyurethaned it (without sanding, etc.) and it looked fine after doing so. This cloud-like appearance has come back. Would you please advise on what caused this to cloud up again so soon, and what we can do and/or use to keep this from reoccurring?
FYI, the door is somewhat protected from the sun with a covered porch area, but we do experience excessive heat here during the summer.
Thank you so much for your help!?
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Hi Diane. Usually cloudiness is the result of trapped moisture. This can happen when applying finish during really humid times. Not sure what the weather was like at the time of the application but that could very well be the problem. My advice would be to refinish the door during warm/dry weather using high quality materials, like my go-to Epifanes marine varnish. I know it is a lot of work, but that’s one big drawback of polyurethane: it isn’t easily repairable. And once damaged, it is usually best to remove it completely otherwise you are just delaying more problems.
Question: Can I apply touch-up stain over Polyurethane and not regret it? I have 2 situations, one on exterior door moldings that have been finished with Helmsman Spar Urethane, and the other on interior wood finished with a water-based polyurethane. Problem is that nail holes were filled with putty that initially matched but turned white as it dried, so now every nail hole is extra obvious, as is the putty that smudged into wood around each hole. Looks like fingerprints of white all over the dark wood. I tried using the stain touch-up kit from my kitchen cabinets over the a few spots, and it seemed to work very well. But will I be sorry down the line – will it peel or discolor or dull out and then be just as obvious? Thank you for your fantastic web site!
Hi Susan. If the putty is under the film finish, which it sounds like it is, then the stain isn’t going to be very effective long term. That poly layer really doesn’t want anything on top of it, and most stain will just make a mess and never really cure properly. Now there are things like gel stains which contain some poly that will cure on the surface. But I don’t know how this will look in terms of hiding a flaw. It just might make things even worse. One of the big drawbacks of a polyurethane finish is that it isn’t easily repairable. So doing little touchups like this can be very difficult. Even if it looks good today, it might not look very good a year from now. But never say never. If you like the results, give it a shot. But just know that that the answer to your question is no, you generally don’t want to put touch up color on top of poly.
Hi I am new the the site tickled to death I found it I wad wondering what the best finish would be for a set of cornhole boards they are a gift for my son I am using cabinet grade plywood oak to be exact after painting and staining them and mind you the abuse they will suffer along with outdoor exposer what would be the best or ideal for a deep glassy finish thanks so much in advance nathan
An exterior polyurethane would certainly be a decent choice considering the conditions. Should stand up to a good amount of abuse.
Hello – love the site, I used your technique to refinish my 1920′s pine front door. After 2 years the southern exposure has wore down the finish a bit (I have a glass storm door to protect it from the weather) I was about to lightly sand and reapply the poly when I noticed that the finish appears to be splitting a bit with the grain. The splits (for a lack of a better word) are with the grain and just enough that you can get part of a finger nail into the split area and its rough to the touch. I am hoping that the poly I add to the door will fill in these spots and leave me with a nice smooth finish. Thanks so much!
It should help fill the gaps. Just apply a nice heavy coat, let it cure completely, and see where you’re at. You have to be careful with poly finish because you don’t want any moisture to get under the finish as peeling will be the next step. But hopefully you got to it soon enough that the subsequent topcoats will buy you at least a few more years.
I recently a lightly weathered bench and sprayed it with spar urethane. Unfortunately the sanding left a lighter uneven color than I wanted so I’d like to give the bench a new finish. How do you recommend I proceed? Should I resand the bench again, lightly apply some mineral spirits to the bench, or just add the finish directly then follow with the urethane.
I also got some spar urethane on the metal arms of the bench which now have yellowish splotches. Is there a way to get those off? Any advice tips will be appreciated!
Once you have poly on the surface, you can’t really do much about uneven color. They do make poly with color in it, but those can be very fussy. So if you need to even things out, I would strip the wood down and have a “do-over”. And its a good idea to wipe the surface down with mineral spirits prior to finishing so you can get an idea of what the surface will looking like with finish on it. You can then correct anything that might need some work. As for the poly on the metal, I would just try to scrape it off. Problem is you will likely scratch the metal in the process. I’m not quite sure how you’d get around this. Even if you used a chemical stripper you would pull off any paint that might be on the metal. If it is bare metal you will likely stain it. So that’s a bit tricky.